Popular threads on PoliticsUK - · 1st November at 13:44

Politics UK

‎"Over the past ten years the government has permitted mass immigration despite very strong public opposition reflected in numerous opinion polls. We express our deep concern that, according to official figures, the population of the UK is expected to reach 70 million within 20 years with two thirds of the increase due to immigration. While we recognise the benefits that properly controlled immigration could bring to our economy and society, this population increase, which is the equivalent of building seven cities the size of Birmingham, will have a huge impact both on our quality of life and on our public services yet the public has never been consulted. So we call on the government to take all necessary steps to get immigration down to a level that will stabilise our population as close to the present level as possible and, certainly, well below 70 million."

What is your opinion of this e petition, which was created by Sir Andrew Green, Chairman of Migration Watch UK?

T.S.

Utter rubbish! If you look at the UK population figured from 1999 - 2009 the population rose approx 2 million, and 1 million since 2009 (approx) Sorry their figures just don't add up! A simple google search can prove that one! This is just anti immigrant racism as far as I'm concerned, based in bigotry, not fact!

R.G.
If we try and 'cull' immigration and also the population...I want to know how we are expected to achieve this, with brutal measures of sorts, no doubt...what a future that indicates to me, and I will oppose it, all of us have to....! Also, if we prevent immigration, then it follows that we will prevent emigration of British peoples...or other nations will...so we will become imprisoned in the UK, not free at all. No borders, no prevention of movements of people, if you want freedom!

J.R.
Is there a yes to lettig in however many is feasible and suitable without arbitary figures, based on speculative and often loaded data?

H.A

.‎..." So we call on the government to take all necessary steps to get immigration down to a level that will stabilise our population "

I believe people should be entitled to an opinion and I'm sorry but I don't see how this statement is particularly racist. It isn't targetting any particular group of people or any individuals.

A.C.
Controlling immigration and deporting immigrants are two very different things that people like to associate together for the sake of the racism argument.

T.S.
H.A., racism doesn't have to target anyone in particular, just being anti "immigrant" is a form of racism in itself

S.O.
I don't think it's a racist statement either. I do however have issues with groups who exist primarily to focus on immigration, but that's another story.

A.C.
To "cull" the population we can start by repatriating illegal immigrants, immigrants convicted in the UK and immigrants living off of welfare.

J.Z.H.

There's no racism at all - I think this goes back to a discussion we had yesterday. I agree of course that the population is too large for infrastructure to support adequately at present, and increasing it will only make matters worse. The racism argument is usually brought up simply to defend the government having little or no plans on how to actually control immigration properly.

It should be pointed out that the expected rise figures actually come from the ONS, who also state that two thirds of the rise is due to immigration.

S.O.

But let's hold fire here for a moment.....these are 'projected figures', not actual. It's rather crass to present them as factual. You'd need the ability to see into the future, and frankly if you had that you'd be busy laying on bets at the bookies and filling out lottery tickets...

A.P.

And why is it racist anway,a lot of these immigrants will be white,a lot from Eastern europe,people are so quick to play that card which is why it never gets discussed properly..maybe more should be said about the people in this country now who will die because they cant afford heat or food,i care more about them

H.A.

So because I believe that the open door policy ALL governments have adhered to in the past should be moderated and a cap put on immigration in order to ease lack of space, employment and debt - I'm a RACIST? Good golly...you learn something new about yourself every day! lol

R.R.

These Figures where on a report from the bbc the over day , So I would expect some form of credibility rather than plucked out of thin air , The bbc of course are reluctant when it comes to immigration figures , so I would suspect them to be on the conservative side , The situation could be a lot worse , Most is made up of immigration and the immigrant baby boom already here . Russell Most of us are already imprisoned in the uk already , not being able to afford a bus fare let alone a passport , The numbers emigrating are slowing , those who can afford to have already left .

H.A.

In nature, often the most valuable piece of land is the water-hole. A number of animals will come down to drink from that water-hole. The water enables them to survive, reproduce and expand their group. If there are too many animals at the water-hole they will fight each other. The strongest survive, the weakest either die or have to trek across land to find a new water-hole. We love to think we are above nature, that we aren't animals, that we have dominion and control over our planet. The fact is, we aren't and we don't.

All earthlings on this planet have to live in harmony with their environment or they become extinct. In the very short space of time we have existed as modern man, we have survived, reproduced and expanded. We have laid claim to many water-holes. We have even dried up water-holes to return them to land because of over population. There are many. many people who fear over-population will ultimately be our demise, including Sir David Attenborough who has spent rather a long time at water-holes! lol.

Just because there are people out there who fear that over-population and over-crowding is a problem, this does NOT make them racist or even aggressive in their outlook. Looking at population growth over the years, I feel they are entitled to express those fears without being the target of a lynch mob. Everyone thinks now they have a 'right' to have a child. They don't. Mother nature decides that one, not humans. We are arrogant. We are controlling and often we are extremely cruel. We also have the ability to fuck up the environment in a way that other earthlings don't. And for this fact alone, I think we should ALL be accountable, responsible and sensitive to the fears of others.

B.Z.P.
If we allow ourselves to be swayed by the over used racism card, forget 70 million and be prepared to expect 80, 90 million. The simple fact is that the UK is a small island and we don't have the infrastructure to cope with mass immigration. This is not racism this is common sense. Otherwise the standard of living for all people in the UK immigrants or not will suffer! We already struggle to cope, so until we can cope immigration controls need to be set in place for the good of everybody!

J.Z.H.

And projected figures are of course open to review, but not based purely on guesswork. Predictions based on trends are a viable way of suggesting the need for change. Added to which while we already have a high population density, we are aware that still immigrants are entering, often illegally (who are not counted in most population figures). This is going to have bad consequencs on the country. Claims that all immigration is a benefit to the UK is as ridiculous as stating that all people born in the UK provide a national benefit. There is good and bad everywhere as we know, and while often those who do not oppose immigration caps tell those who do 'not to generalise', the counter arguments also do exactly that.

Our main concern here should be security, health, law, poverty, and drain on resources before worrying about how to help out others. If we are seeing cuts as bad as claimed, then how could we possibly condone increasing the population who depend on those resources being cut? That wouldn't be fair on either British people or the immigrants.

A.P.

And before people use the old chestnut "we are all immigrants" well yes you are probably right,but you are talking historically,when the world was a totally different place than now,with a much smaller population and not as many resources to drain,i think of the here and now not hundreds of years ago

J.Z.H.

I think debating what happened tens of thousands of years ago is a pointlss argument anyway. Today we are divided into nations with very sofisticated social and political systems, propped up by money. And you are spot on about the difference in population. The human race is wiping itself out practically, and people are too complacent about our comfort levels and 'rights' to have things we simply want.

My family, especially my mother's side, are more recent arrivals in England (1950s). The scale of immigration was nothing like it is today back then, nor was the social disharmony. All my family, and friends and neighbours of that same generation who immigrated here say the view of the British empire as thuggish and wrought with race problems is vastly exaggerated, as is the idea of the oppression they suffered when they arrived here. In fact they find a lot of these claims rather amusing, espeically as it was the British empire which brought different races and cultures together in the first place.

The problem as they see it is that few who come here now actually want to embrace their new country, assimilate, or become ative in a culture different from their own. In all fairnss because of the scale of immigration they don't have to.

It is rather illuminating that previous immigrants have such a strong opposition to modern lack of control on immigration. As it happens I've found British-born blacks and Indians I know to be most opposed to immigration.

L.W.

J.Z.H., that may've been the experience of your relatives. Unfortunately is wasn't the same for my parents arriving in '79/80 but then I guess it depends on the country you come from. I'm not sure Indians or Pakistanis for that matter would agree that the British Empire brought us together.

I have no problem with immigration control but disagree that it should be based on who 'assimilates and embraces' the country as it gets selective.

M.C.‎
@ A.P.“ And why is it racist anway,a lot of these immigrants will be white,”

So being black, or shades of, would make a difference then???

L.W.
I think racism argument gets in the way of immigration debate when we get comments about eroding British values, language, religion etc. If we have a genuine concern for dwindling resources we shouldn't have to give these as reasons. It should matter if every one of the immigrants over next 20yrs fits in. If there isn't enough space then we don't need all this picking at cultural differences or 'my people fit in better that your people'. Then maybe we should educate on benefits of smaller families too.

A.P.‎.. No M.C. its just that they would be the same race as me ie white therefore not really racism is it,Xenophobia mayybe but thats just another tag isnt it,dont really think its that hard to understand..im white so can i really be racist against somebody of the same race as me..there ive said it slowly so you can understand a bit better

A.M.

If they come in legally, pay taxes, get a job (if they can its hard enough to get one yourself right now) and get on with it, then im ok with that... bwenefit scroungers, criminals and illegals i do have a problem with and should be deported.

A.M.

benefit*

K.M.J.

I think people are angry about the lack of housing available, low employment prospects, over crowded GP surgeries and schools. If the government cannot deal with these issues then they will be happy to let people blame it all on immigration.

H.A.

Nicely said K.M.J.!

R.R.

Overpopulation is just as bad as lack of population.

B.D.

Many on here seem to confuse realism and racism! Without the infrastructure nor the means to support dramatic increases in population we can only expect a structure under strain to eventually collapse.The signs are already here. from health to housing to transport to utilities to education and so on. This is realism not racism, anyone using the latter term as an argument has serious bigotry problems.

S.F.
Of course the fact that your growth durhing the naughties also totally relied on immigration is not worth mentioning? I really wonder who are the deeply bigoted people on that thread, better reading that than being blind.

Sorry for stealing a house of yours and good lord you'll be happy I tend to go back to France if I need to see a doctor... don't want to steal those (the taxes I paid??? na, does not matter, taht just a fee for the right to being spoken to...)

S.F.
You vote for neo-liberal policies for bad quality public services and you blame your problems on immigrants, get a grip people and a brain transplant!

B.D.

Did we really rely on immigration in the naughties? Business relied on a cheap, unrepresented, compliant workforce to keep wages down. Boardroom pay increases v those of the workers reflect that indefensible fact, it isnt as if they are worth anymore than they ever were its jus

K.M.J.

S.F.. Are you saying that none of those problems exist in Britain. Or that our government have neglected to deal with these issues that many members of the public face. We have very few immigrants where I live and yet I have people around me blaming immigrants for creating our lack of jobs, housing and the fact that if I want to see my own doctor I have to make an appointment 3 weeks in advance.

It is time that the people responsible for these problems got the blame and in my opinion that is our own pathetic government.

A.P.

As I understand it, with various treaties on human rights and the like, there's bugger all that can be done about it without tearing them up.

S.F.

B.D. not all immigrants are cheap labour in fact I know a highly paid banker, a senior executive at ernst and young, lots of ingeneers and doctors who are immigrants in the UK.

As far as exploitation of cheap labour goes the blames lays with the exploiters not the victims so please join uncut and occupy and be useful.

J.Z.H.

L.W., ironically around 1980 was the start of this push for racial equality, and it led to no end od frsutration for those British with a deep seated inferiority and paranoia complex. The more ingrained these rules have become in our society the worse things have become. You simply cannot force people through law to change their opinions without feeding into their feelings of victimisation.

J.Z.H.

As for Indians not agreeing, after the Raj a great number of Indians and Pakistanis left, many for England, like my mother's family. And there is nothing wrong at all with being selective. It would certainly safeguard things which we hold dear, such as freedom, health, etc.

J.Z.H.

Actually on the subject of cheap labour from immigrants: This is frankly not true for the most part. Cheaper labour tends to come from those illegally living and employed in Britain, as employers use their status to blackmail cheap labour from them. It is illegal to differentiate pay based on background, and in fact when my previous employers brought over Poles to train they paid them more per hour than the other employees, despite the fact the work output was the same. Sorry but all this talk of exploitation of pople from EU countries or of legally entitled people working in Britain, and their supposed superiority for the economy is just not true.

The Growth was caused by borrowing. It is a much more efficient process for creating money than industry, and is why our economy is based around banking and business.

L.W.

J.Z.H., if 80's was start of racial equality then in my experience it was much needed. It didnt go to extent it does now and I think it had bugger all to do with the reason we were attacked several times or why my father despite learning English couldn't gft work other than commision-only door to door sale jobs.

Hmm, well I will assume here and say that would be the elite few indians with money already having good links with British. Every Indian I know inc. My dad came here due to African/Kenyan passport.

L.W.

Its not just the immigrant that has to intergrate but host has to be willing to allow them to. Over past few days on PUK people have spoken of British values and traditions but found it hard to explain. Of course it is complex but unless you state what these are how can we claim immigrants erode this? I myself celebrate xmas to some extent but wouldnt expect immigrant to do the same. As long as they respected customs, good manners (not just a British trait and not every Brit has this), made some effort to learn coversational English, respected laws then there is no problem. We do well to learn from immigrants too such as other forms of socialising which don't involve pubs. Funny, many 'immigrants' the general public refer to are probably UK born. Some actual immigrants intergrate better than those born here.