Politics UK users reaction to St Paul's Dean Graeme Knowles resigning over the Occupy Protest.
St Paul's Dean Graeme Knowles resigns over protests
M.Ca.
Nothing new in this story apart from the Archbishop's statement. The occupation wont be ending any time soon.
Richard Frazer
Nice work Occupy. You have just ended the career of a very respected religious man.
There is another person out of work.
M.Ca.
He resigned Richard, that was his own choice. If only more people had the balls to make a stand like that for what's right.
Richard Frazer
That's not right putting an honourable man in a position where he had to resign
Richard Frazer
Maybe all our most honourable people should be put in positions where they have to resign. We can then all sit in tents and protests we have no honourable people in jobs
Mick Constable
"Maybe all our most honourable people should be put in positions where they have to resign.”
Noooooooooo, who will control the idiots then
A.K.
It is very sad that yet another member of the clergy has resigned...the Dean of St Pauls and the Canon last wk...The protest is not about the church but it highlights the schism between the financial interest of the church and their thological interests....This protest is about a fairer society...
Last week we saw Capitalism in melt down..81 MPs revolted against the gov to get us out of Europe..Greece is in default, the Eurozone is out of control we are on the verge of another recession unemployment is at 2.27million..+...benefits are cut energy prices soaring...The rich are getting rich while the vast majority is getting deeper in debt..
The protesters are there to highlit the fact that despite causing the recession the banks are bailed out by the taxpayer these banks award themselves with huge bonuses...While workers suffer pay freezes the top directors award theselves 49% pay rises...
These are the injustices that the protesters want the gov to address that is the reason for the protests...Jesus would have been out side of the temple with the protestors....
J.Z.H.
And STILL they want to save the Euro!
Richard Frazer
A.K.- fully agree
B.H.
Anita: Life is unjust; there will always be winners and losers. People can protest about it and urge the government to do something about it, but what and how?
Interesting how those on the left start banging on about Jesus, whilst being largely atheist.
Mick Constable
Thats because they are lost for any meaningful words of wisdom Barry, think its called gob smacked
Dean Knowles said his position had become untenable
Richard Frazer
More minister being driven out of a job he appeared to be doing well, by a bunch of largely jobless (unless you count professional anarchists as a job). What has that achieved?
J.Z.H.
Maybe many misunderstand the role of the Church of England in Britain's history, and the significance of it today. Rather than simply being a spiritual organisation, it also served as a community hub, and helped to secure social cohesion as well as community solidarity before we had social reforms. It was also pseudo-political... local churches and their ministers could be thought of as the pre-runners to modern councils and members. There are still some rights afforded to the church to encourage these old roles: e.g. the Archbishop of Canterbury's right to bestow degrees, the Crown as the head of the church, the hierachy and (until recently) bishops in the House of Lords. This is one reason why the Church constantly makes changes to it's structure and principles - it is strongly linked with British politics from it's very inception, and provides a unique social hub.
My only disagreement with them would be the role of Jesus! (In jest of course ;))
Mick Constable
They have achieved nothing, they have little if any popular support, they are a drain on society and quite simply a waste of space.
Move them on, and if they resist, forcefully move them on with big sticks
Richard Frazer
They need to be lifted from the site now. They have made their protest and they will clearly not move on without a fight. Let them have their media day with forceful removal (which is what they want). Let them create fake photo's of police brutality, but move them on. The police will have the backing of the public as they did on the whole with the riots (which I admit were without any reason at all so were different).
D.L.
Time to go protest over sure but why such venom from posters here? Not getting it ........................
Richard Frazer
I absolutely guarantee if they are moved on. . . claims of police brutality will be thrown about (poor police - I would hate to do their job). So we need to accept the crying wolf and just get them out of their now.
M.Ca.
Certainly people being upset by the Occupation movement shows to me it's doing something right.
D.L.
Hi Richard I trust you are well my lovely? x Surely he chose to leave? I can't see anything that says otherwise? Also some people are under the illusion the cops should go softly softly maybe just interpretative error for brutality as i read it. I sometimes wonder why we get so het up when people protest ........history is littered with evidence that civil unrest is what brings changes and no one here has ever said we don't need change !LOL I can't see that agreeing with the cause behind protest is always the main thing really. I am mindful of the countryside alliance protest, for me bunch of toffy nosed stuck up draconian twats with little to say worth listening to, never thought for one minute they had no right to protest for what they think to be right. I paid for the policing of their demos etc Bit more respect for other believes goes a long way. Just saying ...............................
N.S.
They plan to be in tents towards Christmas, maybe going to join the demos on the 30th the TUC day of action. Then go home...or maybe not
S.S.
Hopefully they will have been moved on long before Christmas.
A.K.
First of all Barry..."winners and losers"...problem is Barry the only winners seem to be the bankers/the rich and the rest of us carry the debt....I am a Christian and a Catholic and was a lay minister...most Catholics are socialists...."
Richard peaceful protest is a vital part of our British tradition...It is It is a powerful way of getting your message accross and it was the means by which most of our freedoms that we enjoy today were won...Trade unions which ended child labour and brought better conditions in the work place better pay..........womens suffrage....
I regret those clergy resigning but when you are a minister your first priority is God and your concience has to be guided by this...they are as you have said very hounerable men...But many such men have done this and more...Oscar Romero bishop of el Salvador gave his life for his people.....
D.L.
Think A.K.you are one intelligent woman x
S.S.
Anita, as I understand it, and I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong, the protesters are not being asked to leave, they are merely being asked to remove their tents.
A.K.
Sheila no the Bishop wants them to go...
The Bishop of London said he does not want the anti-capitalist protest outside St Paul's Cathedral to end in violence, as he defended a legal challenge which could lead to the camp's eviction.
Speaking to hundreds of protesters on the cathedral's steps yesterday, the Right Rev Richard Chartres said he shared demonstrators' concerns about corporate greed, but refused to abandon the legal route which has shaken the Church of England.
He told demonstrators the site had become an "experiment" and "laboratory" for democratic protest and the legal bid did not mean "we are on the inevitable road to violence".
"Whatever happens, nobody wants violence," he said. "There is nothing that will efface the value of what's been done better than violence." But he countered: "The camp could be taken over by people who are very different from the ones who are in charge at the moment. I think it is a prudent measure."
Today, as two legal challenges to remove the 200 Occupy London Stock Exchange tents in the financial district begin, the cathedral will attempt to quell protesters' frustrations over the bishop's tone, which appears to be confrontational yet conciliatory.......
A.K.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/bishop-comes-face-to-face-with-protesters--but-wont-back-down-6255005.html...
S.S.
I'm sure the Bishop does want them to go, I wouldn't want them in my back yard either, but the article states that the tents are to be removed, no mention of removing protesters.
Richard Frazer
He did choose to leave. . . but the question is why did the church minister choose to leave? He spells it out quite clearly because the Occupy protest outside and similar public protests are stopping him from performing his duties as a minister
Richard Frazer
Everyone has the right to protest. So protest an then go home.
People being upset and making good people quit their jobs is certainly a success for occupy.
M.Ca.
He CHOSE to resign! What part of that don't you understand?
D.L.
I read it that he felt he had done all he could, believed in the 'cause' and wanted some fresh eyes on the situation. My understanding is he feels deeply that he has made the right choice. I take my hat off to him personally Richard, not many follow their convictions nowadays. Also the tents are a bit of an eyesore now, I remember protesting outside SOuth Africa House about 2 zillion years ago 24/7 with no tents. We just got organised as will these guys if their convictions are any where near as honest as our man. Protest and civil unrest peacefully that causes this amount of interest and disruption got to be a positive towards change don't you think?
Richard Frazer
M.Ca.- As did Mr Fox and Thatcher. However there was little choice. The guy CHOSE to resign as he found his job untenable. What don't you understand about that?
Richard Frazer
I do too Dawn, clearly a very honourable guy. We should be encouraging people like that to remain role models in society, not encouraging them to leave
Richard Frazer
I do give Occupy the fact they are organised. However every time you ask what it is about, you get different answers and the majority of the public care little.
S.O.
He chose to resign is the only pertinent factor. A role model sticks around.
I don't particularly agree with the protests as it happens. Not because of the tents, Christ alive that anyone should dismiss a protest because it's a little unkempt, but due to the inability to communicate any coherent message. Most laymen don't even know what they're doing there and what they're protesting for, and that dooms it to failure and ridicule.
A.K.
Canon Giles Fraser told the London Evening Times that he resigned because of the action of THE CATHEDRAL ...He believes that the proposed eviction will result in violence...Giles Fraser has been a great supporter of the protestors and their cause...
Dean Graham Knowles resigned today because of the Cathedrals handling of the situation....The clergy at St Pauls are very divided...
Both men went according to their belifs.....as a good clergyman should...
A.K.
Richard Mr Fox got found out and went before he was pushed...Margaret Thatcher was knifed in the back by her own party she went before she was pushed.....
D.L.
I do wonder though if he might have stood up for whats right though.............just saying
Mick Constable
There should be no violence if the demonstrators abide by the law and remove thier tents.
D.L.
There has been violence?
L.C.
Robin Smith, a 48-year-old former Conservative councillor for Wokingham Town Council, said he was one of many part-time protesters at the camp.
“I’d say about 25 per cent of the people go away and come back. There are lots of normal middle-class people turning up and helping but they have to go back home and some people come once and go away,” he said.
“They’ve got jobs and a family to keep, so they’ve got to look after their kids or go to work. I met one guy who comes in then goes home to go to work.”
A.K.
Mick they want the protesters to go as well as the tents....on protester said he will sit on the floor and the police will have to physically remove him...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/oct/30/bishop-ducks-st-pauls-challenge...
D.L.
The protesters should move into the city........
Mick Constable
Wandsworth Common would be a good alternative, or set adrift on the Thames
Alan J B Wyllie
I would be extremely angry if their occupation interferes with Remembrance Sunday.
Mick Constable
You and thousands of others Alan.
D.L.
One of the reasons they should move Alan unlike Mick i think somewhere more high profile but they have the attention of the media and the underlying message is pretty spot on. But i kind of like bit of civil unrest ya know me bit naughty like that x
A.K.
Alan the protesters have behaved impeccably so far...so I cannot see they would disrupt the Remamberance Services...They have been given 48hrs. to go or face an injunction...
Christian groups are talking about encircling the camp with a ring of prayer if the police come to evict them.....
D.L.
A.K.where are you getting the news feeds from? Can i ask a question please might be termed a little personal so don't want to cause offense x
Mick Constable
Arrest them to, bloody noisy prayers, no need or use for them
D.L.
You said something about violence earlier where have you read that? i can't find anything about it?
Mick Constable
I said there should be no violence if the demonstrators abide by the law and remove thier tents.
D.L.
Ah ok no real reason to think there might be though so strange point to make...................
Mick Constable
Why
A.K.
D.L.I watch Sky News and get a lot of info from that and I read the Telegraph and get good info from that.. I watch the paper reviews and get different view points and then I make up my mind what I believe is right...I have know much of what I have put on here for days...
St Mick you may not have need for pray groups but others have...they will not be noisy they will be very respectful...Their aim is to avert violence....
The Church of England has to decide if it is on the side of the exploited or the exploiters....The Church of England cannot just sit on the fence...
St Mick you may not have need for pray groups but others have...they will not be noisy they will be very respectful...Their aim is to avert violence....
The Church of England has to decide if it is on the side of the exploited or the exploiters....The Church of England cannot just sit on the fence...
Mick Constable
St Mick, I like that, it has a ring to it :)
A.K.
D.L.the clergy that resigned did so because they believed that the Cathedrals actions of evicting the protesters would end in violence...They did not want to see another Dale Farm episode....
D.L.
But nothing i have read says there has been any the resignation surely has had an impact on the protesters and they will move on?
D.L.
any violence sorry
A.K.
Mick I have a very fertile imagination ...we will convert you yet....what a strange saint you would make.....
Mick Constable
I could do confessions and things.
D.L.
Actually A.K.my question to you would have been regarding that viewpoint. Fence sitting,The Dean could it be argued that he could have made a different choice? Possibly to stand WITH the protesters
H.B.
it should be no surprise we are adding the church to the list of institutions caught off guard by reality of the citizens. politicians, business, police, media and now the clergy. if we take a long view its a good thing. we are in the slow burn of a true change.
L.C.
I've heard there was violence at the Newcastle occupation at 4am this morning when 20 or 30 EDL attacked the camp,Seen nothing in the media.Apparently took the police 10 minutes to arrive.Strange if these occupations are such a threat to public order that the camp wasn't being watched a little closer by the police.
D.L.
Which is the WHOLE point H.B.we all agree we need change civil unrest historically is what brings about change ..................
D.L.
lol and who was it being violent Lee?
A.K.Kirby
The protesters are non-violent any violence will come from the police...The real violence comes from the financial sector who have caused this world wide recession....and caused many people world wide to suffer....Yet they continue to reward themselves and carry on business as usual...with no attempt to reform....This is not the first financial crisis the banks have caused and it won't be the last if they are allowed to get away with it...
The protesters are telling the government we have had enough and want change now ....It is not just here in the UK it is all over the world people are protesting against this corrupt world banking system.....
Mick Constable
The protestors could goad the police simply by not moving on as requested, and as such being made to move followed by calls of police brutality and violence, simple deduction of the extreme scenario.
And a few protestors are telling no-one anything apart from they are simply being a pain
D.L.
but they should move tothe city
D.L.
Bigger Picture Mick ............
H.B.
probably will be like that. put it won't be a failure for the reasons above. sometimes i think the more we micro analyse for conclusions the less we see the bigger picture.
Mick Constable
"I've heard there was violence at the Newcastle occupation at 4am this morning when 20 or 30 EDL attacked the camp”
No reports, non event then, simply unfounded gossip
D.L.
but they should still move to the city
D.L.
worth ignoring then Mick so lets not dwell eh.................
A.K.
D.L."sitting on the fence"
Jesus spoke up for the powerless and against injustice...the abuse of power at the expense of the oppressed...
The clergy at St Pauls ALL of them read the bible each day and kiss this book and say this is the word of the Lord...Not some of it is the word of the Lord....So they either go along with the teaching of Jesus or if not they cannot be considered to be Christian....
Jesus did not condone violence...he rebuked Peter for trying to defend him from the Romans who came to crusify him....that is why the clergy who resigned did so....because they were following the teachings of Jesus....
Jesus spoke up for the powerless and against injustice...the abuse of power at the expense of the oppressed...
The clergy at St Pauls ALL of them read the bible each day and kiss this book and say this is the word of the Lord...Not some of it is the word of the Lord....So they either go along with the teaching of Jesus or if not they cannot be considered to be Christian....
Jesus did not condone violence...he rebuked Peter for trying to defend him from the Romans who came to crusify him....that is why the clergy who resigned did so....because they were following the teachings of Jesus....
A.K.
Mick do you mean hearing Confessions or telling them....I dont think there is a priest in the land who could cope with your confessions...lol
H.B.
exactly the church should be praying for them and talking and inviting them in. not seeing them like Mick does, as a pain. the chapter is clearing too wrapped up in its own processes to see the good they could be doing.
Mick Constable
Helen, they have little if any public support, otherwise there would be thousands of them, even the anarchists cant be arsed to turn up to cause trouble
L.C.
@ Mick Constable,My source was someone who was there.I said I'd seen no reports in the media,That doesn't mean it never happened! A quick search will show plenty of sources backing up the "non event" or unfounded gossip." Do you not agree that the EDL may be capable of violence,Mick?
Mick Constable
Tried searching, found nothing, as for the EDL, wankers
Mick Constable
Perhaps you could post a link as I have also asked a frind who lives there and he has heard nothing about it
L.C.
Perhaps your search engine has the "block left wing sites" filter switched on.
Mick Constable
No answer then, OK
H.B.
why are you so angry.? five minutes of legal aid cuts news this morning has made my really angry. not this. but maybe you have never needed state or legal support? maybe you have never been systematically beaten by your partner? or applied for benefits because you have been so ill you can't get out of bed for months? its easy to be arm chair angry. at least some people are protesting the war on vulnerable people. it May not be a perfect protest but people are listening. the hardest thing when you have little voice or power in society. they are doing it for millions of us.
D.L.
Thanks for that answer A.K.it is the one i have been arguing with my hubby LOL but the protesters should move to the city
D.L.
Morning Helen, your point is spot on! Direct the venom and anger at those that are truly responsible for causing mayhem i say! Chances are by 'hitting out' at the REAL criminals we might just get to the route of the problem
A.K.
The protesters camped out side of St. Pauls Cathedral have been given written notice that they have 48hrs to move on or be evicted.. The Cathedral authorities blame the corporation and say it not the cathedral bringing legal action....
Three very principled clergymen have resigned because of the way the Cathedral is handling the situation....
Are the Cathedral authorities having a Pontius Pilot moment and washing their hands of the protestors who's cause they claim to support.......
1 November at 10:53 · Like
Mick Constable No anger Helen, just bloody annoyed at the waste of taxpayers money being, and going to be spent, on these time wasters.
They have no public support otherwise there would be many thousands more out there supporting them (armchair support is excluded).
Now they have been given notice, watch out for the anarchists turning up to create trouble as they did at Dale Farm.
J.Z.H.
Anonymous will always have my support.
Mick Constable
How is a nuisance an injustice, bit of an over-reaction ??
T.B.
In terms of wasted taxpayers money I'm sorry but your tax gets spent on all sorts of shit. Brand new spanking football stadiums we don't need, wind-farms that seemingly haven't nailed it, etcetera... I'm sure you can come up with your own examples... but no matter how misguided you think these protests are - and undoubtedly the larger it gets the more people's personal opinions get involved - I think credit needs to be given. They've been so organised; they have a food tent, music clubs, tech tent, a library, they’re peaceful, there’s a university tent, lectures and plenty of debates... the later prove that a majority accept they don’t know what the route problems are; a lot have purely been affected and think it’s wrong; they put it down to “greed” and all that rhetoric, in which there’s a lot of truth, but I think it goes straight over people’s heads... clearly waving the “anti-capitalism” banner won’t do them any favours either; it’s not the generalisation that needs to be focused on, it’s specific things in the system and the proof and figures that need to be honed in on and maybe then people will see some truth in it themselves. Something that convinces the house wife, the intellectual, the economist even, etcetera... Point is: like all things, with a bit of trial and error and debate I think they could work it out and hopefully the message will refine in its demands, currently I think it goes over people’s heads like some conspiracy theory, but maybe when these efforts are concentrated and they draw up a plan, a dossier, legislation or – I don’t know – something professional and intellectual that plays by the bank’s and government’s “official” ways will they – maybe – see the argument. We all know shit isn’t right, that’s surely part the reason we joined pages like this, but we can’t all go about thinking we are right... and with that, I expect a full back hander to my comment to follow haha
D.L.
Mick they got support no space for a zillion tents is there also peaceful so no need for any precious tax payers money to be spent unless the cops wade in like they did this morning on the PEACEFUL picnic ! I hope tented mini cities spring up all over our cities and towns ALWAYS a good thing peaceful protest
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