This ought to keep you informed, haha. http://www.isthatcherdeadyet.co.uk/
Keeping track of when, exactly, The Right Honourable Baroness Margaret Hilda Thatcher will finally cop it.
Richard Frazer
Very disrespectful.
Sharon Douglas
Then you would really not like the "I'll Dance on Thatcher's Grave even if she is buried at sea" page, Richard.
Richard Frazer
Have I. . . well I will unlike that. I like far to many pages trying to gather stuff for this page.
Richard Frazer
nope not in my likes
Just remember Thatcher is a ex leader of this country, a mother and a grand mother. Would you want someone wishing your mother was dead?
Aarran Craig McPherson
Try telling that to the people whose family member's she killed in the Falkland War.
Richard Frazer
Aarran - Not sure when you turned bitterly against the lady your adored previously. However you should not go round wishing people are dead.
Richard Frazer
So do you wish Cameron Dead? Do you wish Tony Blair dead. Both are responsible for dubious wars in our lifetime?
Frank Webster
Aarran, all wars kill people- I think at least a dozen of mine were killed in the Great War, and my grandmother's first hubby in the Second World War. The men who died were fighting to preserve the Falklanders' right to be British, as opposed to their subjugation by the tyrannical fascist regime in Buenos Aires that we successfully saw off.
Sharon Douglas
This is all I will say.....it is unlikely anyone would worry too much about a family's sensibilities regarding a dying relative, if that relative had ordered the murder of one of yours. Actually, I have not wished her dead. I was only pointing out another similar site. I also said, you would NOT like it. Personally....I hope she continues to live a long, long time.
Aarran Craig McPherson
I was not just talking about the British soldiers gentlemen, we are forgetting the elephant in the room that is the Belgrano. I always did prefer Heseltine anyway, hahaha.
Richard Frazer
Aarran - I think you should take time and speak to people on the British Army pages and see what they think of the Falklands war.
What they think of Thatcher and whether they wish her dead
Aarran Craig McPherson
Anyway, I do not wish for her to die, I just want her to atone for her sins.
Frank Webster
The Belgrano was still a threat- even if it was moving off. Naval artillery can be turned any direction, so whether it was going one way or the other is immaterial. Not only that, but Michael Foot- then the Labour leader, and a steadfast opponent of authoritarian and fascist regimes- backed Maggie to the hilt during the Falklands War.
Aarran Craig McPherson
Indeed he did, but I do not care much for Mr Foot either, Socialism and Libertarianism are both equally as abhorrent as each other.
Richard Frazer
Aarran would you have prefered the Belgrano to have destroyed our ships.
Do you know the Argentinians have since said Belgrano was a legitimate target, that they would have done the same.
Richard Frazer
So how do you want a Prime Minister of this country to 'atone for her sins?' - When she was protecting British land from an invading agressor?
Frank Webster
Aarran, despite his faults Michael Foot was a wonderful man- one of Parliament's last great orators. One might not have agreed with some of his views, but he dominated the Commons with his personality and his oratory- and this comes from a liberal Tory.
Aarran Craig McPherson
That may be the case Richard but I know a Veteran of the War and he said that Thatcher killed many men from careless decisions and that The Belgrano posed little threat. The best part is that he is also a Tory (although a more left wing, liberal one than Maggie).
Frank Webster
Richard- you hit the nail on the head. I suppose if we repeated our tactics at Messines in 1917, we would be accused of being beastly.... one cannot make a fry-up without breaking eggs.
Barry Black
this is not about wishing someone dead, it's just a bit of satire as she is arguably the most hated PM ever, probably the PM most negatively portrayed by satire too.
Aarran Craig McPherson
I agree Frank Mr Foot was a fantastic orator with a great personality but I do not care for his views that much.
Aarran Craig McPherson
Hear, hear Barry!
Mark Caudery
Good to know lefty Tories still exist, Aarran.
Richard Frazer
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1034634/Lady-Thatcher-honoured-State-funeral.html
Lady Thatcher to be honoured with State funeral
Aarran Craig McPherson
I am not a Lefty Tory Mark, haha, I have left the party I do not actively support anyone at the moment, I shall weight up my options with every party and see who I support then. I am looking for a Third Way party to be honest.
Richard Frazer http://conservativehome.blogs.com/thetorydiary/2011/11/thatcher-tops-league-table-of-best-prime-ministers.html
YouGov poll
Thatcher tops league table of best Prime Ministers
conservativehome.blogs.com
·
Richard Frazer
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/margaret-thatcher/8614385/Margaret-Thatcher-most-capable-Prime-Minister-poll-finds.html
Margaret Thatcher 'most capable' Prime Minister, poll finds - Telegraph
www.telegraph.co.uk
Richard Frazer
Papers and history seems to disagree.
Aarran Craig McPherson
Notice these are alll from right-wing sources Richard?
Richard Frazer
Not true Aarran - YouGov is the source of the poll.
Richard Frazer
Of course Right wing people will promote it though
Frank Webster
Speak to my brother-in-law, Aarran- he isn't a Tory, but he loved Maggie- she let him keep more of his own money and buy his council house. Before 1979, it was more difficult for working people on ordinary wages to buy property- Maggie made home ownership a reality for many.
Aarran Craig McPherson
On the other hand Frank, we now have a shortage of social housing due to Maggie though.
Aarran Craig McPherson
I mean yes, it is great that people can now own their own homes but had she built one social house for every one bought by someone that bought onje from the state we would not have a housing shortage like we do now.
Richard Frazer
Due to subsiquent leaderships not building enough. You do know how long she has not been in power.
Frank Webster
That's because the private rental sector is being strangled- our tax system is perverse... try to make your assets work for you and you get taxed.
Richard Frazer
It is easy to blame the leaders that try to change things. Thatcher is easily one of the best leaders the UK have ever had because she did exactly what her voters asked for and was one of the longest serving because of it.
She would not of been voted in repeatedly if she was failing the country.
Frank Webster
Richard- again you hit the nail on the head. We don't build enough houses, and there are not enough incentives for private house-builders to go out and build houses. I read a piece by Enoch Powell, from the 1950s, and he demonstrated a brilliant understanding of the housing market- we do not need state housing, what we need is a healthy private rental sector and the opportunity for people to be able to buy their own house. No Tory should ever oppose home ownership- home ownership is one of the bulwarks of democracy.
Aarran Craig McPherson
Richard of course Blair and Brown have mad many mistakes but that does not take away from the huge ones Maggie made during her tenure.
Richard Frazer
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8253169.stm
Bringing Nissan to Sunderland. Was this Thatchers greatest success?
Certainly has been a massive employment and investment win for the UK!
BBC NEWS | UK | UK Politics | Was this Thatcher's greatest legacy?
news.bbc.co.uk
Was getting Nissan to invest in Sunderland Margaret Thatcher's biggest success as prime minister?
Aarran Craig McPherson
It is arguably her only good legacy.
Cecilia Fisher
yes the south of england loved the auld witch but she lost every tory seat in scotland and destroyed them forever in scotland
Frank Webster
Maggie didn't try to introduce ID cards, didn't let rip with the public finances, didn't try to detain suspects for more than 72 hours (42 days from Brown!), didn't try to interfere in virtually every aspect of our lives.
Frank Webster
Cecilia, so did my area- the Heavy Woollen district of West Yorkshire... we're hardly stockbrokers and bankers, more small businessmen and working people, but we're also one of the last bastions of Old School Liberalism, which Maggie successfully represented.
Cecilia Fisher
no she just destroyed scotland and large parts of england
Aarran Craig McPherson
Maggie did not introduce ID cards - arguably a mistake. Maggie did deregulate the banks and businesses which have caused the mess we are currently in, Maggie did destroy the industry that previous Tory, Liberal and Labour PMs spent decades creating, Maggie created the individualist culture, Maggie ripped communities apart, Maggie abolished care in the community. Heseltine would have been better.
Richard Frazer
Sorry but I would not wish a persons death on any leader on any country ever. You cannot argue that Maggie deserves death and then say you have compassion for others. Do you not see the hypocracy?
Aarran Craig McPherson
I do not want Maggie to die and I am not wishing for her death, I just wish she would at least apologise publically for some of the mistakes she made.
Richard Frazer
Just like every other leader.
She will not apologise for having a different ideology to you.
How narrow minded. You may have a different opinion to her now, but you previously agreed wholeheartedly with her. Were you just as bad then?
What happens if you decide she is right again?
Mick Constable
^^^ Let Blair and Brown go first, by the time they’ve finished she will have passed on
Mark Caudery
Let's not get personal now Richard, we all have a right to change our minds.
Richard Frazer
I agree. But I really dislike threads which open with the death of a person.
Richard Frazer
Conjecture either puts her as disliked or liked.
It depends on ideology. She stuck to her guns throughout. Holding position that long as PM is always going to create good and bad press (see Blair). Why should she apologise for doing what her party was voted in to do.
Hex Austen
Offensive. I can't believe this thread is even on here to be honest.
Mick Constable
Its like someone posting about your own mum dying.
Its balantantly immature, irresponsible and inappropriate
Mark Caudery
It's not against the rules is it?
Richard Frazer
Which part?
Frank Webster
How is not introducing ID cards a mistake, Aarran? Surely having all of one's details on one single card is a recipe for large-scale fraud, and having to carry proof of one's identity is surely a way to sour relations between the people and the police?
Mark Caudery
erm... the post?
Hex Austen
Its offensive and its infantile. I'm sad that PUK have dropped to this level if this remains on here.
Mick Constable
No, but combining this with the other post, if kids want a voice and to be heard, they first need to grow up.
As for the adults, they are simply pathetic venemous vindictive & pathetic people
Thats not against the rules either
Richard Frazer
Hetty / Mark - No TOU have been broken, but surely Mark you disagree with the feel of the thread
Hex Austen
Up to you but I find it distasteful and the perfect excuse for rabid leftist ranting.
Richard Frazer
What is the benefit of ID cards. We have passports and driving licences.
Do you think terrorists will bring them with them?
Mark Caudery
It does amuse me how you right-wingers are fine with Clarkson's "joke" about shooting striking public sector workers on prime time TV, but are up in arms about a joke on a facebook page about asking if a former UK PM is still alive.
Hex Austen
May not be against TOU but its hardly unbiased is it?
Mark Caudery
Only PUK posts need to be unbiased.
Mick Constable
MArk, Optimal word being JOKE, some of the comments on this and other threads are far from humerous.
Anyone taking Clarkson seriously, thats their own stupid fault, left foot sensitivity.
Richard Frazer
I am fine with this site.
I think it is disrespectful, but allow people to have freedom of speech if they choose to display it in this way.
If Clarkson had opened up a website which suggested we are all waiting for your mother to die. I think we would not be happy with that, but would not stop him doing so.
I think you need to listen to that interview of Clarkson as he did not put it forward as his opinion either and I for one said it was inappropriate, but was being misinterpreted
Richard Frazer
Clarkson joke was crude and disrespectful to. However I said people were making moutains out of milehills. Seems unrelated to wishing the longest serving PM dead though
Cecilia Fisher
or fully in agreement with youths been jailed for a joke on fb .rabid rightwingers at their best
Mick Constable
where abouts on FB, not on here Celilia
Cecilia Fisher
oh yes on here mick think feral was the words to describe them
Richard Frazer
It appears that human decency is not allowed amongst left wingers
Richard Frazer
I cannot believe people are ok with wishing people are dead. . . because they happen to be right of centre
Hex Austen
yuk. just too beneath me to continue with this. bye.
Richard Frazer
Same here
Cecilia Fisher
well it certainly isnt a trait the rabid right [contradiction in terms ]are known for
Mark Caudery
We can't afford to Richard, the right wingers have sold that off. lol
Mick Constable
I see no ferals on here Cecilia, just a few rabid olduns :lol
Cecilia Fisher
no you are missing the point richard its ok for JC to wish thousands of public sector workers executed on live tv ,but someone makes a joke about the sainted margeret and you are all horrified double standards me thinks
Mark Caudery
I guess they think her life is worth more than the millions who went on strike.
Helen Baglee
she is very old and ill. She has lived her life and ruined countless other on the way. Nothing wrong with looking forward to the time of a cathartic event - her passing away. I say this after hearing news of someone passing away and I still stand by it.
Cecilia Fisher
typical rabid wrong
Cecilia Fisher
i think they would prefer if like them we were all hypocrits
Mick Constable
I’ve changed my mind, she does deserve a state funeral if only to piss off a few lefties :lol.
Everyone dies, but to gloat is the sign of something far more sinister and bitter in a person.
Tribal Mentality
Simon Hall
Still cant make up my mind on Thatcher. Seen at first hand the families and areas that she desroyed but also seen the good she did by standing up to the unions.
Frank Webster
Coming from the centre-right, I cannot and would not wish any of my opponents dead- it's just plain wrong. Pure left-wing hypocrisy at its best.
Ian Jerram
So it's ok for the left to moan and cry about Clarksons jibes and then make similar comments regarding Mrs T...... The double standards of the lest are staggering ....
Ian Jerram
Actually Mick Im with you ...... Id love to see a State Funeral with the anarchists et al just to see their faces ....
Frank Webster
Ian, you have to remember that "the left know best", in their own less than humble opinions. The left think they have a monopoly on compassion and all that, but some of us were born just before the Miners' Strike, and know about the compassionate behaviour of the miners- beating up policemen and non-strikers. Pure hypocrisy, simple as.
Mick Constable
Nothing funnier than a leftie throwing a hissy fit :lol
Ian Jerram
Yes there are very occasions where I'd willingly pay to see the rain of truncheons from the police at a demo...... But at Mrs Ts funeral ..... Oh yes
Cecilia Fisher
what the miners did to the police give me a brak ,orgrieve ring any bells soldiers in police uniforms ,
Frank Webster
I have relatives in Orgreave, Cecilia- my grandfather coming from nearby Rotherham. Scargill wanted a fight, and he sure got one. The older miners disowned Scargill, it was all young hooligans who caused trouble- I advise all 'middle-class' Labourites/Socialists to read the memoirs of Roy Mason (one-time miner and former Labour MP): he lays into Scargill no-end.. given that Scargill had waged a personal and nasty campaign against Mason since the 1970s.
Alan J B Wyllie
That website is very well known. Can't say I use it much though..
Mrs Thatcher is viewed by many to be an evil woman. He policies directly affected those people lifes. People in their prime were thrown on the scrapheap, communities had the heart ripped from them. It is perceived that she wanted to break the Unions irrespectively of the harm that that caused.
Should Mrs Thatcher have a state funeral? Only if there is precedence AND only if it can be done respectfully, that is my opinion.
Do I wish Mr Thatcher dead. No, then I would lower myself to her perceived level.
Hate if you must but I ask myself this. What does that achieve?
Cecilia Fisher
well you will remember the soldiers in police uniform ,the horse charges ,setting dogs on the miners and the brutality that was used against thwem
Aarran Craig McPherson
As I have said before, I do not wish her death I just posted this to follow up from the previous post about Maggie. Maggie was wrong, I am surprised it took me a Scotsman so long to realise how she destroyed my country yes Blair and Brown were not that good either but nothing compared to Maggie!
Ian Jerram
Still no excuse to celebrate the death of someone else. I remember saying when Mr Foot died that I may have disagreed with him I still respected him and wished his family my sympathies
Aarran Craig McPherson
Maggie Thatcher - dogmatic, libertarian and eveil. Proof - the handling of The Belgrano issues, the Miner's Strike, using Scotland as a guinea pig for her poll tax and abolishing care in the community to name but a few reasons.
Frank Webster
Blair and Brown were far worse- they let rip with our finances, which made things much worse. Scotland was destroyed by corporatism, not Thatcherism.
Cecilia Fisher
it was destroyed by thatchet ,as were communities and lives in these communities ,
Aarran Craig McPherson
Blair and Brown, gave Scotland a parliament (something Maggie denied us), introduced the minimum wage which brought 1,000,000 people out of poverty 75% of whom were women, enshrined Human Rights into the Scots, English etc legal systems, achieved peace in Northern Ireland, got Gaddafi to rid his nation of Nuclear Weapons, had us integrate further into the Eu and allowed more immigration whihc has benefitted our eeconomy.
Ian Jerram
Personally I liked Margaret Thatcher and Michael Foot because you know where stood. The hate and bile being poured out by the left on here is frankly embarrassing
Aarran Craig McPherson
Ian, I was a Tory party member and am not currently a member of any party, hardly a left winger in my opinion.
Aarran Craig McPherson
Centre-left perhaps, but not a socialist.
Mick Constable
Nothing wrong with hating her, even despising her.
But as has been said, to wish the accelerated death, no matter how inevitable or to want to dance or piss on someones grave, is a sign of humanity that should have no place in the UK.
Those who think such things should simply be treated with the utter contempt they bring upon themselves.
Frank Webster
No Cecilia, communities were destroyed by complacency- Maggie refused to bail out failing industries, and rightly so. If a business cannot survive, it should not be bailed out with public funds- subsidies merely delay the inevitable. And Aarran, don't tell me that unlimited immigration has benefited this country- unlimited immigration has put greater pressure on our public services and the public purse.
Cecilia Fisher
http://youtu.be/3gRgaXib0Sc
ECE-5: The Battle of Orgreave: On Re-enactment and Protest
www.youtube.com
Ian Jerram
Aaron you probably believe the Chronicles of Narnia are factual history if you believe that lot .....
Ian Jerram
Helen Baglee you must tell us when one of your relatives pop their clogs so we can post offensive remarks. Don't like it? Well imagine how Mrs Ts relatives must feel ...
Aarran Craig McPherson
Ok then Ian, I have mentioned to you why I think Maggie was wrong why don't you give us a long list as to everything that she has done whihc is so great?!
Ian Jerram
Aaron she got so many things wrong but as with Michael Foot I give her the respect of being a UK politician who did what she thought was best. I think wishing her dead etc is frankly childish
Mark Caudery
Not sure the hypocrisy is on the side of the left here... The link posted is to a website saying it will announce when she died, which presumably will be of natural causes. JC called for people to shot in front of their families... Slight difference.
Frank Webster
Wider share-ownership, more foreign holidays, more household gadgets, more home-ownership, higher disposable incomes... to name a few. And Cecilia, stop banging on about the miners- I'd lay a pound bet that none of your family went down the pits, unlike mine where we're talking generation-upon-generation.. what killed coal production was a lack of investment, geological problems and the increase in oil consumption... and the decline in coal consumption started in the 1960s, and the decline was relatively uniform until the 1990s.
Aarran Craig McPherson
As I have said before I do not wish her to die, although you have just avoided the question completely, another reason I grew so disenfranchiesd with the right.
Mick Constable
Funny how those who can remember the strike, and were directly affected by it, and those who simply dont have a bloody clue, fail constantly to mention the two men who had as much hand in destroying the mining industry as Thatcher.
Not only that, they refuse to accept they they two men used the miners as their "glove puppets” in trying to further their own selfish agenda’s
Mark Caudery
One might say they had little choice with their backs against the wall. But I'll leave this for people who are more knowledgeable about that era.
Frank Webster
Mick- I am being helpful, go to Skelmanthorpe near Huddersfield, and ask the boys who worked down the pit who destroyed their livelihoods? When the Coal Board tried to close them down, they offered to take their redundancy money and then buy the pit from the Coal Board- and Maggie backed them. What went wrong? The Coal Board told them it wasn't happening. As Roy Mason wrote, it was inevitable that pits were going to close anyway- indeed, what Labour WILL NOT tell you is that the pit closure programme, supposedly started by Maggie, actually started in... er... 1966, under a Labour government, when Maggie was- if I remember right, a mere Opposition Spokeswoman on Pensions.
Aarran Craig McPherson
Ok Frank, we'll move off of the mines then, Maggie raped Scotland of it's industry, mining in the central belt is all but gone thanks to her, mills closed down, shipbuilding decreased, a very local example would be the closure of the Aberdeen Grandholm Mills in 1990 which suffered tremendously at the hands of Maggie's economic policies as did our Broadford Works.
William Macdonald
hahaha typical hypocrisy of the right wingers, complain because people were upset at Jeremy Clarkson "making a joke" about people dying or about committing suicide but mention Maggie and "how dare anyone say such a thing!" lolol make me laugh and sick all at the same time you bunch of hypocrits
Alan J B Wyllie
She smashed the Unions which was strangling the UK.
She gave millions the opportunity to get on the property ladder.
She saved the UK from Neil Kinnock.
The Falklands.
Ian Jerram
I'm centre right economically centre left on social policy. My only desire politically is for English independence from the UK
Aarran Craig McPherson
Alan I agree she did get many on the property ladder but why could she not fuel the construction industry by building more social houses at the same time? That way both the government and construction industry would have benefitted.
Cecilia Fisher
you are wrong so wrong apart from the pits which were profitable ,she also destroyed rosyth dockyard ,transferring work from there to plymouth after they had sunk a basin costing millions to a dockyard without the facilities in order to appease the english voters ,dont try and tell me what thatcher did to my community i lived through it
Frank Webster
Industry was fucked due to poor investment, bad management, cheaper imports and changes in technology- aka. rates of technical substitution. The Scottish Labour movement, and the SNP, were typical Luddites and refused to accept that the industrial landscape was going to change anyway- they say the public purse as being a bounty of subsidies to failing industry. The problem with the decline in heavy industry is that, in a free society, consumers will buy what they want and from whoever they want- and those of us who are older than most will remember the crap that British industry turned out. Countries like Germany and Japan did well in the export markets because they were selling what people wanted, at the price they wanted, and at the quality they wanted.
William Macdonald
she sold off social housing stock without building new
She caused The Falklands and sent hundreds of soldiers to their death for no reason.
Cecilia Fisher
as for the bet you would lose ,generations of my family went down the pits .i lived in the chicago of north look it up
Helen Baglee
Ian Jerram Why the heck should I think about her family. Im not obliged to feel anything for her. She is ancient and incapacitated so maybe her family will be relieved she will be at peace. There is a reason left and centre minded people hate her. The very reason they are left or centre or both. She effected their lives for the worst. If someone sends you into poverty or sends messages being gay is wrong or destroys your mining village. Erm you have a right to hate her. Right wing moral protests are always hysterical and feeble.
Frank Webster
Cecilia, I looked at your page- you are so obviously SNP- so don't get on to me about closing dockyards- the SNP would close whatever is left of the defence industry, because they are anti-military... it's like saying "Oh the Tories are going to close RAF such and such because it's in Scotland"... we all know that the SNP would close such bases anyway because they don't like the Armed Forces... which as an Anglo-Scottish Yorkshireman, one side miners t'otherside Forces, is an insult to Scotland's great contribution to the Union.
Frank Webster
Okay, Cecilia- well my great-grandfather was Deputy at Brodsworth, the largest and most productive pit in the Doncaster coalfield. He told my granddad to keep well away from working the pits- given that great-grampy Webster was covered in blue scars and injuries from a-million-and-one accidents.
Helen Baglee
Oh yes - and my dad was a day off leaving for the Falklands when the war was hailed a victory. We were lucky, others werent. Another reason to hate her. Feelings getting stronger now!
Aarran Craig McPherson
The fact is that Maggie did more harm than good to the majority of hard working lower and middle class families in the UK and many leaders have tried to change this but it will not be easy to repair something Maggie destroyed.
Joseph Gray
I don't like milk so I love her.
William Macdonald
She sold them off to Galtieri first before having to go to war because the right wing of her party were not happy, shes a hypocrit and a war criminal!
William Macdonald
almost as bad as Blair!
William Macdonald
she loved milk thats why she took it away from the kids
Mick Constable
Funny thing with all this, hardly anyone on here is Right Wing, at worse Right of Centre, most are either side of the centre line with a few teetering on falling off the left pecipice.
But if a straight forward left and right suits everyone, hey lets go for it .
William Macdonald
lol Mick your right wing and dont even know it!
William Macdonald
thats what being right of centre means! doh!
Aarran Craig McPherson
Although I do regret one thing, they kicked her out before 1992, had they left her Kinnock would have won and I have always (even when I was a Tory) liked Kinnock!
Mark Caudery
I don't know Aarran. Again, I'm not too aware of the that era but I'm reliably informed Kinnock lost because the press were so against him, otherwise he it is widely believed that he was set to become PM.
Frank Webster
Aarran, you're talking rubbish- I can easily dig up the statistics to disprove that statement. Either you've been reading too many left-wing pamphlets or you were a Tory without understanding why you were a Tory. I am a Tory because I detest socialist compulsion, wasteful spending and "a pick a winner" industrial policy- and believe in strong families, hard-work and personal freedom under the rule of law. Socially I am a liberal, in that I do not approve of social engineering or bowing to the "moral majority", but fiscally I am a conservative who believes in keeping the budget in balance and ensuring low interest rates and low inflation to keep growth going.
William Macdonald
then your on very dodgy ground frank because since the 40's the Tories have a worse record on the economy than Labour do, you clearly havent a scooby doo about the facts and have fallen for the rhetoric instead!
Aarran Craig McPherson
Ok PoliticsUK I am abotu to amaze you with some facts from my past you may have all thought I was alwas a Tory up until a month or so ago but nope infact at the General Election I backed Labour and Brown and I also voted in the Labour Leadership Election for Ed Balls.
Joseph Gray
Why so much hatred?
William Macdonald
in what regard Joseph?
Cecilia Fisher
btw frank why did you go on my page ,as for the snp being anti military get a grip man ,they do however as do i feel that as we are such a small country we have no need to spend countless millions spill the blood of our soldiers in arid deserts in an illegal wars or have wmd park in our waters
Helen Baglee
he messed it up himself - he appeared far too pleased with himself at a Rally some days before. They reckon even if the Sun hadnt been against him that may well have turned his appeal right down. Have seen the clip - its pretty bad.
Mark Caudery
lol Aarron, that's shocking behaviour!
Aarran Craig McPherson
Hahaha, I do not know why I crossed over to the Tories I have come from a Labour/Socialist supporting family and in fact the only Tory in my family is my grandfather and even then he is on the fringes.
Helen Baglee
how did you vote for Ed Balls - were you a labour member too? :) love it!
Aarran Craig McPherson
I was indeed Helen.
Frank Webster
I have the statistics in front of me, William- the Tories didn't do too bad on the main indicators, but they hardly helped themselves with "stop-go" economic policies. Thatcher's first term was blighted with the fall-out from the Heath era, and to be fair to Denis Healey he tried to fix the damage but had to keep the Labour left and the Liberals happy; and then Maggie's achievements were damaged by macroeconomic turbulence- the Treasury became complacent and thought "We've done it, we can sit back and relax". Major's time was blighted by the ERM debacle- we were right to join, but we joined at the wrong time and the wrong place in the cycle, but I remember Ken Clarke leaving us with a healthy economy and growth well on the up and unemployment well on the decline.
Mark Caudery
Always worth exploring the options, Aarron.
Frank Webster
Best Tory Chancellors- Howe (a man with balls of steel who wouldn't bend when Maggie got wobbly, like in 1981); Clarke (didn't listen to Treasury mandarins and went by gut instinct); Lamont (paved the way for Clarke's legacy, but wrongly took the flak for Black Wednesday).
Helen Baglee
Yup hedging your bets - where you scared of coming out as Labour? Surrounded by Tories? So glad you arent living a double life anymore! :)
William Macdonald
ok Frank lets look at the actual facts on the economy!
Frank Webster
Cecilia, I always check out my opponents to see what I can find... and I actually opposed the Iraq war because I did not think that Blair et al had made any case that suggested military intervention was necessary- I think that Iraq is now in a worse state than it was a decade ago.
Aarran Craig McPherson
Well for months I was starting to doubt I'll use th word "faith" in the Tories and now I am not a member of any party, hahaha. In the end it was a case of "Am I in too deep or should I swim for the shore?" When Murd Fraser was not elected as leader of the Scottish Tories I knew that was it game over for the Tories in Scotland and for me as a die hard supporter, if they reform drastically I will look into rejoining but not any time soon I do not think.
Frank Webster
William, I am looking at the actual facts of the economy- inflation, interest rates, savings rates, consumption rates and the scale and magnitude of budget deficits. That's all one needs to consider- anything else is purely a matter of secondary importance.
William Macdonald
IN 51 Labour handed over an economy in surplus!!
the Tories turned that into a 4% deficit by 53!it then hovered around a 2 or 2.5% deficit until the Tories were booted out in 64.
By 1970 when Labour were leaving office again the economy was in surplus by 2%!!!
The Tories very quickly turned that into a 6% deficit over the next 4 years, Labour again came into office in 74 and evnetually got the deficit down to 4% before the Tories took office again under Thatcher.
She then held the economy in deficit untill 1988 10 years of deficit, then it was 2 years of surplus (the Tories first since Labour handed them one in 1970)then quickly again turned it into a 8% deficit.
when they handed over in 97 it was still in deficit of 2%!!
So in total they had the economy in surplus for 3 years since 51!!!
now how the hell can you claim they are bloody good on the economy???
William Macdonald
your clearly not looking at the facts Frank and looking instead at the rhetoric because the facts would lead anyone to conclude that the Tories havent a bloody clue when it comes to the economy!!!
Aarran Craig McPherson
I think that famous line "You can't trust the Tories with the NHS" could also be used on the economy.
William Macdonald
indeed the evidence would agree with you Aarran
Frank Webster
You clearly don't understand that economic cycles create deficits and surpluses; you also forget that the Tories merely followed the policies of Labour Chancellor Hugh Gaitskell, with a slight pause, until 1979. Most people don't know the difference between a structural deficit and a cyclical deficit- the Tories ran a cyclical deficit, which is not a matter to worry about in reality because somewhere in the cycle there'll be a surplus to cancel that deficit out. A structural deficit, which Brown ran up, is a different matter- no level of growth cancels it out, it's a bit like maxing out a credit card and then taking out another card an maxing that one out.
William Macdonald
lol I'm sorry but excuse me while I laugh at your utterly feeble attempts to blame 13 years of deficit in the 50's and 60's and 10 years in the 80's on Labour it sounds so funny to actually hear a Tory say that out loud !!!!
William Macdonald
you clearly have no grip on reality Frank hahah
William Macdonald
honestly you need to give up now before you make even more of a fool of yourself!
Aarran Craig McPherson
Now now, guys lets not get personal.
William Macdonald
and the fact that you resort to the credit card analogy which has been so discredited just goes to show how little you understand of the economy!
William Macdonald
ahhh of course all becomes clear now your a follower of Freidman!!! hahaha
Cecilia Fisher
frank how am i an opponent its an fb page not a boxing match ,taking it a bit to far imo
William Macdonald
Freidman extolls the virtue of a free market but look what happened in 2008 when banks were not regulated!!! lol talk about failure!
Frank Webster
You obviously didn't read it properly, William, and BTW I graduated in Economics. The Tories of the 1950s and 1960s were, with a few salient differences, barely indistinguishable from Labour on economic policy- hence The Economist magazine's caricature Mr. Butskell (based on Tory Chancellor Richard Butler, and Labour Chancellor Hugh Gaitskell). What I was trying to say- and I'll say it in plain English- is that Maggie's deficit was cyclical, although it came unstuck when it was found that the Treasury forecasts were grossly over-optimistic (monetary policy was too lax and Lawson took a gamble based on those forecasts- and lost), which led to a structural deficit. However, all of Maggie's later woes were caused by cutting interest rates in the mid-1980s after the stock markets took a plunge (a mere correction of asset prices, nothing more)- Maggie cacked herself and had the bank rate cut to avert a supposed recession (the predicted recession of 1985-87 did not happen, as it was just asset prices adjusting).
Frank Webster
William, I understand the economy very well- what I learnt from my degree was not to trust econometric models, but go by gut-instinct. I predicted the last recession right enough, although I was six months too early and thus lost a bet with a relative. And I also betted with an estate-agent friend that interest rates will still be at 0.5% on January 22nd 2012- and the way things are looking I will be going to get my £20.
Aarran Craig McPherson
I will agree MacMillan was a Keynesian and fairly Left wing but I am not entirely sure if he had the same policies as Labour on the economy. I know he was a good left wing Tory in fact the Daily Record even wished him good luck I believe.
Cecilia Fisher
OH DEAR aaran the daily retard lolololololloolol
Aarran Craig McPherson
Hahaha, must admit I do not like the paper myself, I read The Guardian although recently I have found it is too Anglocentric so I read The Herald, Press and Journal and The Scotsman.
Frank Webster
Aarran, as I said- there were salient differences, but the emphasis on Keynesian 'demand management' was exactly the same; although I would hardly describe Macmilan's support for capital punishment as 'left wing'... I would agree with his son, another abolitionist.
Cecilia Fisher
newsnetscotland or the new online 1 scottish times ight be more up your street
William Macdonald
Lol I was going to say stop but this is pure comedy Frank.
Let me spell it our for you in the most simplistic terms as you seem hellbent on trying to make it as complicated and conviluted as possible to distract from the fact that the Tories screwed the economy time and time again.
Tories claim a deficit is bad!!!
Tories have had the economy in deficit for longer and more times than Labour hence the Tories are really really bad for the economy all the rest of the bluster you posted was completely irrelevant!
Clearly your economics degree was money wasted, by the way did we pay for you to do that!?
Aarran Craig McPherson
I'll give them a look Cecilia, I am always up for looking into new things.
Frank Webster
No, I did you cheeky bastard. And I am not against deficits per se, I am against wasteful deficits- the automatic stabilisers are unavoidable and if anything desirable. I should add that I am more a devotee of Samuel Brittan- who is if anything a Liberal sympathiser of the Old School. Oh I forgot, my father's side is "English", so I am automatically thick- typical SNP, anti-English to a tee. Shall I fuck off back to England now (even though I've lived up here since I left school)?
William Macdonald
well your half right with your label, but as I said all the attacks regarding Labours handling of the economy revovles around deficits and as I have clearly show the Tories are worst at that!
So to now claim that deficit isnt the biggest point of attack for Tories is either very naive on your part or very hypocritical.
Frank Webster
And I find it funny that Aarran understood what I was saying, but you did not William- but being an English immigrant (albeit of Scots and Irish ancestry), I am not blessed with the intelligence that apparently comes from socialism. I look forward to you, William, putting a brick through my window with a message reading "Immigrants fuck off".
Cecilia Fisher
who are you calling thick -typical SNP ,
Cecilia Fisher
FRANK you maybe should check all your opponents lol william is a unionist and lives in england IDIOT
William Macdonald
so we are no longer discussing how wrong you are about the economy and have moved on to something completely different?
Aarran Craig McPherson
Oh dear, not a deabte about the SNP, this will end in tears for someone, hahaha. Quick warning to all Cecilia can be quite formidable! I am not in favour of Scot's independence but I am in favour of a Federal UK with Scotland controlling everything bar certain Economic issues, defence and immigration.
Frank Webster
I said that I am thick, because I am not a pure Scot- being born in England and having a few English ancestors, and plus I am a convert to Catholicism. To the hardened SNP supporter, only a Protestant Scotsman with pure Scottish genes would be acceptable.
William Macdonald
and who gives a crap about your politics intelligence isnt related to your politics
Frank Webster
Well I am a Unionist too, but staunchly anti-Socialist and a believer in old-fashioned financial discipline. But as I say Cecilia, my Scots ancestors having married a few English makes me about as welcome in an independent Scotland as a shotgun at a pacifists' convention.
Cecilia Fisher
as i said you are an idiot pure and simple before you spout anymore tosh perhaps you should have some knowledge about what you are attempting to argue about
William Macdonald
I'm not an SNP supporter and havent lived in Scotland for the last 25 years
William Macdonald
27 actually!
Cecilia Fisher
there are very few pure scots ,and the snp is 1 of the most diverse parties in the uk
Aarran Craig McPherson
Hmm, I think all my family were Scots I know the McPherson's owned a castle in Speyside for many centuries and were part of the Chattan Confederation my mother's side the Leslie's were from Garioch and owned a castle there too I think.
Frank Webster
I understand economics, probably better than anybody else here- but attempting to explain it to a bunch of implacable socialists is like trying to sell Hell to Jesus Christ. And I know all about Scottish Nationalism, such as their support for Hitler and the Nazis in World War Two, and Billy Wolfe's anti-Irish/Catholic sentiments, and Salmond's links to anti-English groups.
Cecilia Fisher
the only thing that would make you unwelcome is your myopic view of scotland and her people
Cecilia Fisher
as for throwing in the sectarian card good try but once again so far of the truth its bordering on lunacy
William Macdonald
So not only do you have no clue about economics you also are smug enough to think you know anything about the people on FB too from their profiles! lol
But I notice you have been unable to offer anything to counter the facts I provided about the appalling record of the party you support!
Its ok I think anyone would struggle to provide anything to support such an appalling record! lol
Jack Brock
Im flabergasted by Franks comments! My Gast is flabbererd! lol . Ejit on the loose or what? If you know nothing Say nothing Frank! lol
Frank Webster
The SNP is diverse whilst buying votes- if independence came we'd see their true colours: as I say, I could tell you all about the SNP's links to Nazi Germany in the 1930s; and the anti-English, anti-Irish and anti-Catholic sympathies that were more than apparent thirty years ago. Ironically, Andrew Dewar Gibb- a founder member of the SNP and a big fan of Mr Hitler- had served as a junior officer in the Royal Scots Fusiliers under a certain Lieutenant Colonel Winston Churchill (yes, the very same).
William Macdonald
some people are incapable of haudin their whisht no matter how ridiculous it makes them look!
Cecilia Fisher
lol jock you couldnt make it up ,tho he has tried he seems to live in diffrent scotland from me
Cecilia Fisher
godwins law anyone
Cecilia Fisher
frank i dont wish to be rude but you must be the most singulary ignorant person on this site ,
Frank Webster
Cecilia, I have met plenty of SNP members who are not only sectarian but very anti-English. I happen to speak as I find- and I have encountered plenty of racism as I have gone about my business in Scotland; at least once I fortnight I'll go to a shop, buy a pack of fags and have somebody mutter "English go home" the second they hear me asking- in broad Yorkshire accent- for a pack of fags.
Cecilia Fisher
well if i were you i would have these people charged with racism ,we do have laws in scotland you know ,and as for sectatarian you will not find sectariasm in the snp or any sort of english bias ,look at the snp front bench 3 englishmen ,very racist
Mark Caudery
Oh Tories don't have racists, do they?
Mark Caudery
*sarcasm*
Aarran Craig McPherson
As a man who is studying Scot's Law Frank I would suggest you do report them, that is classed as a breach of the peace under the Public Order Act 1986 and can carry a sentence of up to 4 years.
Cecilia Fisher
as for nazis have you seen the news today frank ,
Frank Webster
Yes, we do Mark, and it disgusts me to the extreme- I do not like racism in any shape or form. And Cecilia, what about Billy Wolfe and his remarks about Catholics in Scotland? Okay, he was dealt with by those in the SNP- which is laudable- but I have come across SNP members who hold similarly sectarian views- but I am only a convert to Catholicism, being raised Episcopal (by Methodist and Presbyterian parents).
Cecilia Fisher
and as for muttering english go home ,im sure if someone held these sentiments they would be so polite ,it would probs be along the lines of F off ya english .... fill in the blanks ,however like i say if this has happened go to the police
Jack Brock
Frank ! Go and do something you do know about! Because you are making a complete fool of yourself ! Nice guy as you are.
Cecilia Fisher
frank there is no anti catholics in the snp ,this i know for a fact ,you really should make sure of your facts
Cecilia Fisher
well if what you say is true ,you will have the names of these members ,my advice is report them to the party and they will immeditally have their membership revoked
Frank Webster
I might just report them next time- although I really feel sorry for them because I wouldn't say anything offensive to a Scotsman in England. And as for Tory racists, could somebody please make them go away- I was mortified by the report about the "Nazi stag-do" in the papers this morning; I can understand girls in tutus with loud sashes and the like, and (perhaps) blokes tying the naked groom to a lamp-post, but what that lot did in France- I country I love- was disgraceful.
Cecilia Fisher
in fact i am so incensed by what you say ,pm the names of these members and i will have them excluded tommorow ,the SNP is fighting tooth and nail to combat sectarianism in scotland this will not be tolerated
Cecilia Fisher
i will pm the party secretory in the morning and you will have a reply and an apology that i can guarentee you
Frank Webster
They are perfectly entitled to their opinions- people who are close friends of mine from Northern Ireland can get away with comments, because I will play along. Anyway, I have better things to do than go round reporting people- I prefer to leave them alone so that somewhere along the way they can majorly cock-up; a bit like a former Tory- who was heavily involved in our now Scottish leaders campaign who decided at the conference to have-a-go at a Jewish member from Stirling, he eventually got caught out.
Cecilia Fisher
OH NO you may think you have better things to do but the SNP cannot afford to be labelled as sectarian .and if we allow these people to get away with it it destroys everything the party stands for
Cecilia Fisher
and as you have now brought it to my attention as a ,
Cecilia Fisher
member of the SNP i am duty bound to report this
Cecilia Fisher
there will of course be an enquiry
12 December at 00:01 · Like
Frank Webster
Just leave them, no party can afford to be labelled as sectarian- they'll slip up and they'll get dealt with. As I say, people are entitled to their opinions, but it doesn't mean I have to like those opinions. Anyway, I'll give the SNP credit where it is due- it supports faith schools, as do I.
Cecilia Fisher
you have already labbellled them as sectarian racist anticatholics .and i want this stopped
Mark Caudery
I've seen nothing in the media about those kinds of problems with the SNP, so if there is any issue, it's probably very minor.
Frank Webster
Just leave it- my solution to such problems is to let them make bigger fools of themselves later. Anyway, the Tories could do with dealing some of their sectarian members too- although they dealt with Ross McFarlane, who is an odious little man (he'd be a good parrot, given that his beliefs seem to consist of soundbites).
Cecilia Fisher
yes mark and it has to be stamped on very heavily ,
Cecilia Fisher
even 1 member having these views is 1 too many but frank is giving the impression there are a few and it cannot be allowed
Frank Webster
There's sectarianism to a degree in all parties; Labour has its own dirty secrets too (Adam Ingram might know something about that). As for my political affiliations, I belong to the Tory left-of-centre of a good number of issues.. I have no time for idiots such as Daniel Hannan and Roger Helmer (if the NHS was privatised, it'd be over my dead body- especially as I use an NHS dentist).
Cecilia Fisher
so are you prepared to give a statement to the party secretery then frank ,it would be for the best
Frank Webster
No, because it doesn't really bother me that much... as I say, there is sectarianism, to a degree, in all four of the major parties. I will continue fighting sectarianism in my party, which is my duty.
Cecilia Fisher
yes frank and it is my duty to report it to my party ,and i do feel i have a duty to report it regardless now its been brought to my attention
Frank Webster
SNP officials will know that it does exist within their party, but trying to prove it can be difficult. The only way to prove such a thing is to hope that such people are stupid enough to film or record themselves doing it, just like Ross McFarlane, or to catch them in the act. Anyhow, in the event of me meeting people from other parties- we usually avoid politics and discuss other things, as I have a lot more interests than politics- such as rugby league and model-making.
Cecilia Fisher
or people are prepared to stand up and name and shame .as i said i will report it anyway
Frank Webster
Naming and shaming is harder to do, as I say you need absolute proof. But I can take sectarianism on the chin- offensive as I find it. Though one way I've found to deal with sectarian folk is to remind them of the Catholic 16th Division and the Protestant 36th Division at Messines- for when the whistles blew and the men went over, the boys from both sides cheered each other on and sang each others' songs, and I shall add that we took Messines Ridge (with much valuable help from the Australians, the New Zealanders and the Scots).
Helen Baglee
see what talking about Maggie does!!! Glad I went to bed. Er!!
Ian Jerram
I always know why I dislike the far right, their bigotted racist views. It takes debates like this to remind me why I detest the left as well. I must admist I didn't used to think Mrs. T should have a State Funeral...... I'm starting to change that viewpoint now.
Frank Webster
I am not sure, Ian, whether I agree with a state funeral for Maggie- but I do know that if Gordon Brown died tomorrow I would be wishing to pay my respects.
Ian Jerram
I agree Frank. People need to look beyond their political leanings and realise that there are relatives and friends who have to read som of this tripe ....
Helen Baglee
if there is a state funeral for her.....expect big anti funeral type activity. You think its uncouth now, wait till she does die. Not that I agree with dancing in the street but it will happen. Best to avoid state funeral I say
Andy Brown
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9t4-zDem1Sk
Helen Baglee
Thanks Andy! Have just been you tubing and my my my there is loads on thatcher dying - the day thatcher dies by Hefner is very catchy...will be tonights browsing activity, although prob avoid posting on here, Elvis C is most soulful. Good Post!
Frank Webster
The reason why I don't necessarily agree with a state funeral for Lady Thatcher is that no Prime Minister since Churchill has had a state funeral, and Churchill undoubtedly deserved a state funeral for his leadership in WW2. Stanley Baldwin dealt with the General Strike, and he didn't have a state funeral. I just look at things by way of precedent.
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