M.Mc.
Should "racists" be able to voice their opinion? Is taking away their right to their personal views a contradiction of equality and the right to a personal opinion?
Racism should always be challenged M.Mc. , And how can it be unless you allow those so to express that view .
I believe that people from all races,cultures and nations are move adept to challenge arguments made against them , than say others who wish to supress racial arguments albeit with noble intentions .
Some uncomfortable debates need to be in the open ,and be tackled to avoid them boiling up like a kettle !
M.Mc.
I'm not saying racism's good/justifiable. I'm just thinking that everyone has a right to their opinion, regardless of however idiotic. Taking the power for someone to speak up is also wrong.
T.R.
Well, when I went to Auschwitz it had an effect on me. And I didn't like to hear German speaking folks there. And it may have been just my imagination, but I didn't like their tone. So, I suppose I'm racist. I can't forgive Germany, or Germans, then or now, for what I saw, or for how I felt.
So, I'm racist, and neither proud nor ashamed. I hate the German people for what happened. And I cannot forgive their ancestors for their glib attitude to that place. And the German people now are to be challenged for their parents' vile actions.
M.Mc.
Should all the people from the UK be punished for slavery?
Cecilia Fisher
are the english to be challenged too or the brits ,because T.R. you cannot visit the sins of the fathers on their sons .we never forget but we forgive ,those that came after
M.Mc.
T.R., I hope you can find a way to get over what you saw. I hope that you don't allow your prejudices to overwhelm you. What happened was appalling, yes. But, what you're doing is now becoming what you hate. The Nazis' operated upon prejudice and hate, which is exactly what you're doing.
Cecilia Fisher
and never forget T.R. propoganda ,and it was the uk who declared war [
B.Z.P.
We live in a democracy. We all should be able to say what we think. We can then judge what they say to be good or bad. But to simply say no people may be offended with what you may say so you can't say it would be absurd. It would mean a manufactured democratic society. You can't stop a particular section of society from voicing their opinions because it doesn't fit in with your view. We then use our freedom of speech to counter what they say and try to show them the errors of their ways.
M.Mc.
Yes, that's what I've been thinking, B.Z.P.. Although, it's an impossible situation. Whatever group you allow to be comfortable, you'll be upsetting another group. (I don't like grouping people, I prefer to try and not do that, but in this instance, it was just easier to put people into groups)
R.R.
T.R. yr right and every german should stand up and be counted who were involved with those atrocities should be brought to account , But in its self what you are saying is all those Germans were racist and were involved in one form or another in the murder of so many and lets not forget Germans who were opposed the nazi"s to . therefore we have to look beyond race hatred of a nation , and look to the evils of criminal scum !
Food for thought when even our own country is run by characters that do not represent democracy ?
M.Mc.
R.R., pretty much every country has committed some atrocity in this sense. The Nazis' are just more open about their crimes, their hate and their intentions. I agree that everyone who was involved in anything like that should be brought to justice, but not the rest of the German population. It's like I said, should we now be brought to face prosecution for our ancestors idiocy and barbaric behaviour when slavery was an acceptable part of society? Democracy's a myth, it's just illusions and fantasies in the grip of capitalism.
T.R.
M.Mc./Cecilia; of course you're both right. But, I have to be honest: I have a deep dislike for the German nation because of what I saw. I accept it's because I won't believe it could happen in the UK. I accept it's because it's too horrible to contemplate that it could happen anywhere else. And I accept I may be wrong. But I hope to God or whatever that Europe will never, ever see evil like that. It really was evil personified.
Cecilia Fisher
when we hate or restrict others we do to ourselves .1 mans freedom fighter is anothe rmans terrorist
B.Z.P.
You are right M.Mc., grouping society together will cause utter chaos! The fact is the other group have just as much right to counter whatever has been said by their opposing "group" It is the way democracy works, to then discriminate against certain members of society is not democracy!
M.Mc.
T.R., if you focus upon one part of bad history, you would hate the world. Think of how great Germany is today. How successful it is. How they're now role models for the rest of Europe. You might hate Nazi Germany, which is completely understandable. I'm sure you don't hate 2011 Germany.
M.Mc.
B.Z.P., but how can you call yourself a democracy if you're allowing hate speech to be freely said? Surely that's not what a democracy would support? Like I said, it's an impossible situation.
Cecilia Fisher
T.R. i never visited auchwitz but i did culloden and i rest my case
M.Mc.
I think only education is the key to a true democracy.
T.R.
Culloden is about one millionth of my feelings Cecilia, honestly, it's not in the league. When you see the wee kids' shoes, and hear how they were killed, and how coild they were, it's way beyond Culloden. Anyway, I'm not even sure what side I'd have been on! :-)
M.Mc.
T.R., Germany could have abolished those buildings. They chose to leave them up, I believe this was to educate people, so that this kind of thing could shock and disgust people, hopefully educating people into never becoming such monsters again.
R.R.
M.Mc. its I agree , and that our democracy is now an illusion and that we now live in just the same fascist dictatorship as nazi germany , Capitalism now bought out and is the illusion of a free country . when corporations can dictate military,economic and welfare policy , britain and most of the western world is back to where the world was in 1933 , only difference is we have mobiles and LCD tv"s
Cecilia Fisher
T.R. there are wee bairns shoes everywhere ,we cannot blame the bairns ,who knew nothing else ,.and remember history is in fact HIS-STORY bet you havnt spoke to a german who was a child at the time
M.Mc.
Exactly, R.R.. I couldn't word it better. Flashy material objects are now used as a suppressive tool, as are the police force. Nothing is for the people. We've allowed ourselves to be blind-sighted by greed and want for pointless, material objects. We've funded capitalism and now capitalism's got so greedy it's started to cave in on itself. Our whole economy has been based around consumption and capitalism.
B.Z.P.
I think of it this way M.Mc., democracy can not be accountable for those who freely abuse it, otherwise where does it stop? I have the right to say something that may upset you, but you equally have the right to be upset and issue a response. To then say well I upset you therefore you B.Z.P. can't say anything but I M.Mc. can still criticise you and your views would be more undemocratic than to allow people their right to free speech in the first instance. The person is accountable not democracy. You are right it is difficult situation, not one I think is impossible. I also agree with R.R. and his view!
M.Mc.
B.Z.P., yes, I agree with you there. Ah, I don't know . . . People're so stupid. I don't understand the illogical hate. It really saddens me how people can still be so ignorant, so ridiculous. Even from different corners of the globe we create weaponry to kill each other more efficiently from afar. *sigh*
R.R.
Sadly yes M.Mc. , human nature has never evolved from the instinct of shiney objects and fire water bottles which were exchanged for entire continents .
King, president, prime minister , chancellor , fuhrer , whats the difference ?
M.Mc.
I think it'd be scary to see how we would all be if the luxuries we have today (police, healthcare, etc) were all taken away from us. If we'd give a politeful smile to the person next door, would we help the old lady across the street? I often wonder if it's just enforced into us from since we're babies . . . "Don't smack, don't steal, don't tell lies." What would actually happen if we had life, as we know it, took away from us? How long would we stay civilised for?
B.Z.P.
You've identified the cause of this, people. Parts of our race are driven by greed, lack of education, jealousy and many many more reasons. Yet there are many who are moral, that support each other and live their lives in a moral and orderly fashion. It's the way humanity has evolved to be, and we are yet to understand fully how to control it.
M.Mc.
B.Z.P., apparently we single out those who do not look like part of our clan. We will subconsciously put white people ahead of black people. It's all supposed to be tied in from when we were cavemen. Taking care of our own clan than anyone else's. I'm not too convinced on that theory. Although, when the BNP and EDL come out with remarks about jobs, it doesn't seem all that unlikely.
R.R.
M.Mc. , that system of preference has always gone on and does to this day as you suggest BNP and EDL are examples but so is the conservatives , labour and any one else you can mention .
At least I believe the BNP should stand for all britains of all classes !
B.Z.P.
I don't agree with that theory, I think the reasons lay with reasons in more modern times than that. Things from environment, socio-economic background, location, parenting, education, reasoning and logic all contribute to how one feels and thinks. I think tracing it back to cavemen and other times throughout humanities lifetime is nonsense, humanity developed and continues to develop far too much for me to give that argument weight.
M.Mc.
Hmm, I wasn't too convinced. It just seemed to tie in with some of the mindless babble I'd heard. I think it's media driven, scenarios created by the government and covered up by the morons that eat into everything the media says.
M.Mc.
Although, I have a theory. . . I believe that you'll notice people with a different skin colour more than anyone else, for obvious reasons. If you saw someone walking round in a chicken suit, you'd notice that. But if you see someone just casually walking around with regular clothes on, he'd blend into the background.
R.R.
B.Z.P. you make some good points , but those are luxurys of being able to think .
When if you have no food , no water , no heat , your life must depend on getting those , you have no chance of getting a mate unless you can provide those things , because they will look somewhere else survive .
You only have the B.Z.P.efit of thought because previous generations , have given the likes of you and me time to think along with a high protein diet from sharing resources , that gives us the B.Z.P.efit to think all this through and not still be animals .
M.R.
T.R.....isn't it time to move on? I would have thought that it was extremely healthy that Germans were visiting Auschwitz.......no one is excusing genocide....but that is not a good reason to continue an unreasoned hatred of innocent people.....why, think how many countries would have a grudge against the Brits from events back in the day? Slavery and Imperialism lasted a lot longer than the Holocaust!
M.R.
R.R......what's with all this BNP crap?
A.K.
T.R....
". And I didn't like to hear German speaking folks there. And it may have been just my imagination, but I didn't like their tone"
I have two German friends....When people first meet them they are not too enamoured...this is mainly becasue of their language trats..they appear to be quiet abrupt...If you hear them on the phone they sound like the Gestapo...But in reality when you get to know them they are completey the oposite...Very kind hearted people..
Too often the racist card is played usually by people who have no real arguement...I was called a ...Jew because I spoke up for the Jews I am not Jewish....I was called a racist because I spoke out against religious militants who advocate death and enforcing their religion on others.........That is not racism...that is oppinion.
To single people out because of their colour, race.....that is racism...
G.B.S.said:- We will never have a quiet world until you knock the patriatism out of the human race.....
Richard Frazer
Racism need to be heard and obviously opposed when heard.
However some of the items mixed up in 'racism' may be real concerns and issues. If we discount all the grievences as racism and shut our ears to them we may miss a real problem which will only get worse.
Words will not hurt you. Listen to all words spoken and analyse. If the words are not for you. . . so be it, however what is the point of pretending they don't exist.
J.S.
Me personally dont care what sex/race/colour people are and im also for freedom of speech. But there has to be a line when that freedom turns into a witch hunt
R.F.
Racism needs tackling head on, if people arn't allowed to give their opinions though (racist or not ) then how can racisim be adressed and opposed, it will just go underground and fester so to speak, this wouldn't be tackling racism, it would be kind of ignoring it and hopeing it goes away.
L.W.
Agree Richard but we should also have the freedom to be upset or offended and challenge it. Yes people play the race card but too often people say 'i'm not racist but..'. At least T.R. admits her behaviour/feeling are racist and probably knows its irrational but can't help it. Too often we treat racists as outcastes and fail to provide professional help. People become racists for all sorts of reasons. Victims of racism should be given counselling to stop them becoming perpetrators.
M.Mc.
L.W., or education.
M.Mc.
M.R. I brought it up. I was using them as an example to back up a theory on why people are racist.
Richard Frazer
To hate a race is a condition or ill education I agree. It could be formed by many reasons. It makes no logical sense as people of all races are capable of all manner of reactions. However we should not hate racists. Just help and educate them.
Hate peoples actions, not the people.
M.Mc.
Yes, but, I think that could be applied to anybody who is guilty of any crime. Throwing people into prison is just the same as sweeping dirt under the carpet. The prison system doesn't B.Z.P.efit anyone, apart from the private prison owners, if there was a far balance between punishment and help, I think that there'd be far fewer re-offenders.
R.F.
Many people will reflect upon their opinions if challenged, its the people who genuinly hate that are the most difficult, fortunatly I think these are a small minority.
I do think the media needs challenging a lot more in terms of how it reports certain storys, a lot of these for me have racist undertones and are written specifically to create ill feeling towards groups of people.
M.Mc.
Yes, I agree, R.F. Especially certain media outlets such as, "The Sun" - But, if you've been following the (hopefully) crumble of Rupert Murdoch's empire, you'll see that it goes way beyond just printing prejudice stories.
L.W.
Its not always challenged early enough. Our views are formulated at primary and secondary school age. Occasionally when views are challenged at this age, people are accused of being 'too PC' and 'ridiculous to challenge a child....kids will be kids' etc
R.R.
M.R. , Its a point , to express who actually is a racist ,that the stereotypical view would be to silence a section of population that someone deems racist ,
burying your head in the sand and excluding those from legitimate debate creates resentment and the very issues that the post question seeks to resolve .
S.O.
Worth remembering that a racist is still a racist whether they express their views publically or not. The idea that racist views are silenced is just not true - racists simply find other ways to say it. Witness the amount of "British National", "British Patriot" bs groups/parties that are springing up out of so many small-minded orifices, especially of late.
Whether racists should be allowed freedom to voice their opinion in a more overt manner is a very difficult question to answer. Me and you can laugh at them, run rings around their empty little heads, but others see an outlet in such hate speech. Tolerance, fine in boom times in a liberal society, but it all changes when those boom times take a kicking.
R.R.
Thats very true L.W. , I remember being removed from SPE , sociology , politics, and economics in the mid 80"s because a view was being taught me , not me being taught to form my view , no different to the indoctirination of perhaps north korean school children .
The sad thing is those kids back then and others like them are the ones on backB.Z.P.ches and local councils with their fixed outlook .
Rather than questioned and debated, challenging alternative opinions like mine were simply removed
Guess what im saying is those opinions of primary and secondary school chilldren need to be developed for them to understand their own opinion , not simply taught an opinion .
L.W.
They should be questioned and their parents educated. When I was about 7 I made a stupid comment about a group of disabled kids walking past, it was naive and stupid. A girl in my class who knew better (her mum was an SEN teaching assistant) put me to shame by telling the teacher who had a word with me. I hadn't thought and it embarassed me. It made me wiser. Another time the same girl was ranting about her B.Z.P.gali neighbours. Our teacher asked her if it actually M.Mc.ered that they were B.Z.P.gali. She started to reply 'but my mum says they smell...' and then realised how stupid she sounded. That week the teacher introduced us to 'Star belly sneetches' by Dr Seus. A great book for kids.
I.M.
I personally think that you have the right to say what you want. BUT when you use that freedom to incite violence and hate,then there should be consequences.
M.Mc.
I.M, that's telling people how to think, how to act and what opinions to have. Isn't one of the blessings of this democracy being able to voice your opinion and even have your own opinion?
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