Politics UK
Quite Simply- Did Labour's immigration policies "screw(ed)" the British working class.
Roger Daltrey, lead singer of The Who, has blamed cheap labour from eastern Europe for the decline of the British working class.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/labour/8606748/Roger-Daltrey-how-Labours-immigration-policies-screwed-the-British-working-class.html
M.R.
could it be the international bankers?
M.R.
the uk just like here has a large % of gdp from financial instruments i.e. a bunch of crap www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY4VZr8Ox94
end the fed
M.R.
its always easy to blame thing on the poor and weak
B.H.
Is it actually possible to have any thread in which bankers are not demonised and held resopnsible for all the evils in the world? I await the claim that they developed the AIDS virus as part of their plan for world domination.
S.O.
And the political opinions - at least, the anti-Labour ones - of an ageing multi-milllionaire rock star carry this much weight in The Telegraph? Thanks to PoliticsUK's persistent use of their 'stories', I can now see that the notion The Telegraph is one of the "quality" newspapers is a laughable one.
M.R.
bayer made aids, and heroin and zycokln-b
S.O.
Come off it B.H., if people moaning about them on the internet is the worst they'll have to face - and it seems it is - then they've got off lightly.
M.R.
formerly now as ig farben responsible for 25% of german munition, thats how papa bush made his money, jewish slaves , perscot bush and NY Saving and loan scandel, look it up
M.R.
off with their heads
M.R.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=vY4VZr8Ox94
K.N.
this just proves why ageing rock stars should stick to sunning themselves on their desert islands instead of peddling unfounded inflammatory, racist jibberish like this...the decline of the british working class was heralded by Thatcher's deliberate ideology to systematically deconstruct Britain's manufacturing base
B.H.
Why bankers should be solely responsible for the flood of cheap labour is beyond me. Greedy workers and militant unions pushing up wages and pricing British workers out of the M.C.et has nothing to do with it then?
S.O.
B.H., so greed wasn't encouraged by our Governments at any point in recent history and the salaries accrued by bankers didn't put them at the forefront of the greed movement? A more holistic appraisal would be beneficial.....
B.H.
Greed has been ever-present and universal. It didn't need government to encourage it. Why the hell should bankers be regarded as more greedy than anyone else?
S.O.
B.H., please spare me the cod philosophy, it's completely irrelevant and besides, just your opinion. You brought greed into this - not me. I merely turned your argument on its head.
The financial industry's reckless unregulated behaviour largely got us into this mess. This happened because Governments unleashed the reins suppressing and controlling the level of greed you might argue. Either way, it's academic - it's completely understandable why bankers have garnered such a bad name in the current climate.
B.H.
Bit rich for an exponent of crap philosophy to accuse me of 'cod' philosophy. Why is it irrelevant in a discussion of why British workers were losing out to cheaper foreign labour? In any event, you seem to be wandering away from the subject since British workers have been losing out to immigrant labour for a long time - pre-dating the banking crisis by a long way.
S.O.
Because it's your opinion B.H. that we are all driven by greed, and exceptionally arrogantly put forth too. The more likely truth is that we all possess it to varying degrees, and in some of us it is rather tempered further by qualities such as empathy and contentment.
It's completely irrelevant your moaning that bankers are taking the brunt of the blame, not least because - well - it basically is the fault of their industry and the half-wits who deregulated it. It's also irrelevant because at no point was I blaming the bankers for immigration - that was someone else.
Oh I was wandering away from the subject was I? Oh there was me, thinking that was indeed where you started at...
B.H.
It isn't just my opinion about the universality of human greed - its a key tenet of economic theory as well. It may be tempered by the qualities you mention, but it is often masked by sheer hypocrisy as well. As you say, someone else blamed 'international bankers' which led to my initial comment and I have been asking why anyone should conclude that. So, we agree that the bankers are not responsible, so who is? I have set out my explanation and await your with bated breath.
I.J.
Bit simplistic to be honest. Immigration has generally been a good think filling vacancies in the skilled and in-skilled jobs M.C.et that UK workers either cannot or won't fill.
I agree that yet more banker bashing on this issue is misplaced.
S.O.
B.H., we don't exactly agree, no - it's plainly obvious why the bankers have become the dog people love to kick. Seemingly not to you, but I'm not sure why - they don't need or warrant defending. Those most responsible have nothing more than public reproachment to live with, when a more just response would have seen criminal proceedings.
I will of course point out that the average human wouldn't consider themselves 'greedy', or at least not reprehensibly so, and that the word is negative by connotation. Ergo, it follows to me that there's a distinction to be made when using the word and you're not making it.
M.C.
Maybe successive governments abandonment of the working class led to decline in their employability, hence the need for better skilled working class people from abroad.
S.O.
Immigration was encouraged by successive Governments, Conservative and Labour. Simple as that. On the surface it's "a problem", but that's just lip service to the greater electorate. As always it's not what they say that counts but what they do - and they do nothing at all about it.
B.H.
I am not seeking to defend bankers S.O. merely arguing that to make them scapegoats for all our economic ills is plain wrong. Of course people don't like to consider themselves greedy (call them 'self-interested' if you prefer), but hypocrisy is an equally strong human trait.
S.F.
I actually think B.H. has got a point when saying... " pushing up wages and pricing British workers out of the M.C.et ".
Indeed I think some wages were completely unsustainable hence a re-balancig of the job M.C.et with more 'realistic demands'.
It makes me sound like a right winger but I am not being funny: builders, plumbers and the likes of them were really taking the piss! I am quite happy to have an immigrant plumber who 'only' charge 30 quids an hour!!
B.H.
M.C.: that is wrong. It is the unskilled worker places that are being filled in large part by immigrant workers. Immigration was imdeed encouraged in the 50's, but it is now a problem and is completely out of control - the more so due to EU membership.
30 June at 11:46 · Like · 1
M.C.
compulsory living wages would be a good start.
S.O.
Then why argue about it B.H.? Sheesh.... I quite agree with you, it's a pointless contribution to the thread.
As for greed, if you believe it's inherent to humans as you do, then it becomes relative - and in that respect, we talk about 'greed' in the sense that it deviates from a more normative level. Hypocrisy is evident in us all too, so again we make relative judgements of it.
S.F.
There are 2 types of immigration.
And I would say that loads of highly skilled migrants have also come to London, I know a few foreign bankers, engineers and senior executives on loads on money but this is specific to Londo, and they are not all from the EU.
And I am not even mentioning all the doctors and nurses directly recruited abroad as a means of saving on trainng/ education costs.
B.H.
S.O.: I was arguing because that accusation had been made on this thread. As for what a 'normative level' of greed is or means I am not sure.
M.W.
How much do you suggest as a compulsory living wage M.C.?
B.H.
S.F., there are many motives for immigration, but I think that Daltrey was concerned mainly with unskilled/semi-skilled jobs. Many foreign executives are in temporary UK posts rather than immigrants.
S.F.
"Daltrey was concerned mainly with unskilled/semi-skilled jobs."
I know, I am putting things into pespective.
Also highly skilled migration is not necessarily on a temporary basis. Actually the 2 persons I know who make the most money are foreign, a Japanse banker and a senior executive at Ernst and Young from Madagascar. Since they are both maried to British citizens for years, they are in it for a long time!!
I also know unskilled migrants who left the country upon losing their job due to the recession.
If we want to talk about migration, there are lots of aspects to consider and it is a very complex subject!
S.F.
Matthew
Matthew
I think £8.20 an hour has been suggested for London
M.W.
Why not make it £50?
B.H.
I don't see why 'ageing' rock stars shouldn't voice a political opinion. It isn't completely unfounded or necessarily inflammatory. Nor is it racist since many immigrants are from parts of Europe and of the same race (however, I note your ageist comment: would it be OK for him to comment if he was a young rock star?). Britains 'manufacturing base' was on its last legs when Thatcher came to power and propped up by massive government subsidies. She didn't destroy it as let it die a natural death.
S.F.
Anyway, the biggest threat is not the immigrants themselves but the British tolerance! So many Brits keep marrying immigrants and are the ones who ultimately are making this country truly multi cultural! Most of my Ukrainian Japanese, French, Italian are married to brits!!
Personally I love multicultarism and love the way London is a true cosmopolitan city!
B.H.
Enjoy the massive crime rate as well, do you S.F.?
S.O.
There's nothing wrong with 'ageing' rock stars having a political opinion at all B.H. - but he's just one of many who are not in the political game with an opinion, so why report his like it has some Earth-shattering significance? It doesn't, and the last place I'd expect to read it is in a so-called 'quality' newspaper.
M.W.
No takers for a £50 an hr compulsory living wage? Everyone would be able to afford lots of stuff then wouldn't we?
B.H.
Not in the 'political game'? He's a UK citizen isn't he and therefore entitled to voice an opinion. Is it his fault that the media decide to publish it?
S.O.
Oh I see B.H. - immigrants and crime! Before immigration, the UK was a utopian land of milk and honey....
Spare me. Immigration does bring a criminal element with it, absolutely no doubt, but I can't be doing with those who talk of the two in the same breath. There's a sensible argument to be had on immigration, but to coat it in such negative light makes it impossible.
R.S.
Yes, undoubtedly, and no, i'm not a bigot or racist.
S.O.
WTF is your problem exactly B.H.? Have you swallowed the same curmugedon pills as Mick - albeit this time the whole bottle?
I was rather making the point that there's no good chuffing reason why his opinion should form a 'news' 'story' in a so-called 'quality' paper. Is there anything else you're having trouble reading? As for your disapproval of me pointing out he's not in the political game, I award you the year's most flatulent use of pedantry to date. Again, it's relativity you're having problems with - yes, he's a UK citizen, but there are many of them. His fame and fortune doesn't make his opinion more relevant or wothy than anybody else's. The point I was making was quite obvious.
R.S.
What has he got to lose from saying what he said seeing as he's so rich and famous? Exactly - nada! What he said is quite true.
S.O.
That's got chuff all to do with what I'm saying R.S.. Jesus, some on this board do not have a functioning head on them today....
What he's said is probably debatable. What's certainly debatable is putting the blame fair and square on Labour. Far as I'm concerned, both parties are full of it.
B.H.
I agree that there's no good reason why Daltrey's opinion should form a news story, but is it his fault? Is it the media's, or is it the public's who lap it up? However, in our celebrity-obsessed society that's the way it is. Get over it.
S.O.
B.H., firstly, at no juncture did I suggest it was 'his fault' - so you know what you can do with that redundant point. Secondly, I did state several times that this is not what I'd expect to see in a 'quality' newspaper - see, that there's a distinction. Any time you wish to read what I write, rather than read into it something you can disagree with, would be appreciated.
The fact is you're one of those people lapping it up. Get over yourself and your inflated ego.
R.S.
I agree S.O. both parties are to blame, but after what - 15 years or so of Liebour rule and no offer of a referendum on the EU (unless I missed it)....Labour should have tackled immigration many moons ago. Instead they alienated their own core voters.
R.S.
And now if anybody even mentions the word 'immigration' - they're classed as racist or bigoted.
R.S.
(remember Gordon brown with that 'bigoted Duffy woman' who approached him regarding immigration)
R.S.
S.O. why the need for the insults? Aren't left wingers supposed to promote tolerance? lol
R.S.
(and peace)
B.H.
Just what is your problem S.O.? Are their any 'quality' papers left these days? If you don't like it, don't buy the paper and read it, FFS.
R.S.
Unless it's a paper 'promoting' immigration then it's not a quality newspaper, init! Let's all stick to the Indy eh. ;)
R.S.
Unfortunately due to the benefit culture (perhaps), many Brits have lost the work ethic. Problem is unless they are FORCED to work and immigrants are forced to go home - leaving their jobs behind, said Brits will never get that work ethic back. Catch 22
S.O.
I'm not a left-winger R.S.. WTF are you on about - that anyone who mentions the word 'immigration' is classed as a racist or a bigot? Nobody on this thread did mention it - so why have you, not once but twice? If you have to start with such a disclaimer, then you're doing a good job of arousing suspicions that you are one.
Sorry B.H., your cantankerous curmudgeonly belligerent know-all tone kind of invites bringing you down a peg or fifty. Happy to oblige. Is there something untoward about suggesting I'd expect better of a so-called 'quality' newspaper? No, is there ballbags - but you seem to have managed to do your best to make it so. Thanks for telling me that if I don't like it, I don't have to buy it - I'd never have known without your help.
S.O.
R.S., you're doing a very good job of saying all the things a modern racist does. This isn't the thread for it - are you obsessed?
B.H.
I think you need to examine your own 'tone' S.O.. If you want to grouse about 'quality papers' and their content, feel free, but I fail to see what there is to debate about.
S.O.
Oh I tend to match the 'tone' of those who post to me B.H.. I did a good job there, I think.
Thanks, I did feel free - as you surely noticed. Again, you manage only to state the obvious.
R.S.
Because S.O. indeed I have encountered it on the 'Nobody likes a Tory' page in the past. It makes one a lil bit 'defensive'.
R.S.
Do you know many 'modern racists' S.O.? What is a 'modern racist'? Is it a member of the fascist UAF?
B.H.
A 'wonderful job' eh? Round of applause for S.O....
R.S.
B.H., please spare me the cod philosophy, it's completely irrelevant and besides, just your opinion. You brought greed into this - not me. I merely turned your argument on its head.
S.O. please forgive me but I think you are the one who started with the 'tone'.
R.S.
Ii was infact banned from the 'Nobody likes a Tory' page, lol, and accused of being a Tory, which i'm not. So much to leftist freedom of speech.
S.O.
To the point R.S., whereby the only person who discusses or even hints at discussing immigration and racism/bigotry in tandem is you - not once, but twice? Very strange defensive posture that is. Perhaps if you didn't feel the need to bang on about how you're not racist but....., nobody would actually think that.
S.O.
Hello R.S., you're not one of those weird fake accounts that plagues this site are you? Funnily enough, they always seem to be hardcore Tories or BNP apologists. Can never figure out why that is...
Fascist UAF eh? Guffaw. So, you're overly pre-occupied with 'lefties' curtailing the very Universe itself, immigration and possessing a massive chip on your shoulder about freedom of expression (which is exactly what you're practicing now, but don't seem to appreciate it). Now I know you're in the aforementioned category....
S.O.
B.H., it was a 'good job' not a 'wonderful job'. Like I said, you don't read what's infront of you, you instead read into it. Cheer up :)
R.S.
Because, S.O. as I have just explained - anybody thesedays who mentions even the slightest little thing about immigration are automatically accused of being racist. So I just thought I would get that point across before anybody did mention it. Did you not see my comment about the poor old 'bigoted' Mrs Duffy? It seems that we cannot have a discussion these days without people being accused of being racist, and that card is wearing pretty thin.
S.F.
"Enjoy the massive crime rate as well, do you S.F.?"
Can you show me figures linking crime and immigration please?
I remember 2 crimes since I have in the UK, both happened 5 mn away from my home (I moved in between) the first one one was a gay crime done on the Clapham Common, a Polish G.T.was the victim and beaten to death. Another happened last year in my new area where an English G.T.stabbed to death his white English middle class parents...
If we want to talke about immigration, the debate needs to be non partisan and needs a thorough relexion not easy red hearings!
R.S.
The only thing that is fake S.O. is my second name, it's Smith, not Smithio. As for the rest of it -make whatever assumptions you please.
S.O.
The reason why you mentioned it first, and for no good reason (and then again, a second time, despite nobody mentioning it) R.S. is to try and dilute any accusations made further down the line that you might be veering toward a racist/bigoted opinion. You seem to be unhealthily pre-occupied with it.
R.S.
BNP? lmao @ that.
R.S.
And now all of a sudden our S.O. is the psychologist. Well you proved me right then S.O. as the accusations are already out. lol
S.F.
"Labour should have tackled immigration many moons ago"
Why? 1-Why is immigration bad?
2-How exactly?
3- Are you aware the UK has nearly as many emigrants as immigrants?
S.O.
Well R.S., if I had to assume anything, your pre-occupations strongly hint at BNP (or similar) sympathies. Nobody else calls the UAF 'fascists' (which is a bit pot kettle black!). In fact, most people don't mention the UAF at all. Very very odd.
R.S.
I have an opinion on immigration which is neither racist or bigoted. But as predicted you're doing a 'Gordon Brown' on me. Well done....brafeckinvo.
S.F.
Anyway aren't most of the BNP members ex-labourites?
M.W.
Lol! S.O. likes to accuse people of having fake profiles when he can't provide a sensible counter argument. If you get really lucky he will block you next.
S.F.
"I have an opinion on immigration which is neither racist or bigoted."
Can we have it please so we can debate the actual subject!
B.H.
Whoo-hoo racist witch-hunt. Tally ho!!
S.O.
No R.S., that's what you intended for me to do - the fact is, as I stated, you're displaying very similar pre-occupations to other posters who've contributed here who supported the BNP. There is a pattern. I did not however, state that it was so - merely, that if I had to assume....I don't know why it's proving so difficult for people to read what is written today, and not what they'd prefer it to say?
The only truth here is that immigration in tandem with racism/bigotry was introduced to this topic by you, and you alone.
B.H.
If it was £50, I wonder what the skilled worker would demand?
R.S.
UAF use the same tactics the Nazi's did against the jews. That's why they're fascist. I'm not BNP, more a modern Conservative than anything.
R.S.
I merely raised the words because in recent discussions on other pages (because I'm anti MASS immigration), the word has been used against me.
B.H.
Wow! All thes 'likes' I am a popular boy today! (at least on this thread lol).
R.S.
Because you speak common sense, B.H..
M.C.
Matthew, a living wage varies on locality. In London it stands at about £8 per hour for example.
R.S.
S.F., near to where I live there's been quite a bit of crime related to immigration.
B.H.
*takes a bow, blushing slightly*
S.O.
They're all coming from extreme right-wingers B.H.. Nik etc...
R.S., I know very little about the UAF actually. Still think it very odd you brought that up. Still find it very odd you brought the immigration/racist angle at all - let alone mentioned it a second time. Pretty weird IMO.
S.F.
"S.F., near to where I live there's been quite a bit of crime related to immigration."
Such as? We need more than rumours!
S.O.
N.b. yes sorry R.S., forgot to mention that's what the BNP say about the UAF - pot kettle black!
B.H.
S.O.: aren't right wingers entitled to their views, or is only extreme left wingers that are?
S.F.
Can we discuss the views before discussing whether we are entitled to them?
I do not read much of a debate in here!
S.O.
B.H., is it a slow day upstairs today? All I'm doing is pointing out where your popularity stems from. I personally don't like extremists of any persuasion. I am not, and have not been suggesting anybody is disbarred from their views.
S.F.
" I am a popular boy today"
B.H., it might be because there's only one S.O. on this thread and he's nof from S.O.land?!lol
S.F.
And I love my Scottish friends mind you!
B.H.
So are you suggesting that entitlement to any particular view depends a priori on what that view is?
R.S.
Well, I don't want to give away where I live, but recently a man was beaten to death by 4 immigrants because he was sticking up for a woman who they were harassing.
R.S.
Not a BNP rhetoric S.O. UAF are new age communists, which is basically old fashioned fascism with a different face and just as dangerous. If you weigh them both up there really isn't a lot of difference between the two.
They both believe in stifling free speech. They both believe in the use of violence against any who do not subscribe to their views. They both believe in using people's fears to promote their ideology.
M.C.
Immigrants are just an easy scapegoat for what are more complex issues. The Nazi propaganda machine showed the extent to which that can go. Yes issues need resolving that immigration can exacerbate, but they are by no means a key source of the problems. For that, and as uncomfortable as it can be, we need to look far closer to home for solutions.
R.S.
Hence that's why they're just as fascist as the rest of the fascists.
S.F.
" UAF are new age communists, which is basically old fashioned fascism with a different face and just as dangerous."
Whaaaooo R.S. you're scary, I think you just really and truly gave yourself away and now I also think you're a fake and a troll.
R.S.
Agreed, they are not the sole source, but they do put extra unecessary strain on the public sector jobs that are suffering.
S.F.
R.S., you keep clicking like on everybody's coments when they clearly are contradicting each other... ...
S.F.
and again, lol
R.S.
Trying to get rid of me S.F.?
R.S.
;-)
R.S.
I guess I'm just one big contradiction S.F. :)
S.F.
"they are not the sole source, but they do put extra unecessary strain on the public sector jobs that are suffering."
Have you ever thougt migrants pay taxes and create wealth and are entitled to use the UK public services?
Have you thought of your few millions emigrants who put an unecessary strain on other's public sectors??
S.F.
I guess so
G.T.
So the head of the C of E says the government cuts are causing stress to the working class and that's his legal right to hold an opinion and how it is ok for a non political entity to comment. Daltry does and now it isn't ok for him to voice opinion. Double standards from the labour camp.
R.S.
S.F., other countries such as the US do not have the NHS....so how are emigrants putting strain on similar countries? I am not against immigration S.F., I am against mass uncontrolled unskilled immigration. Most British emigrants usually go with money in their back pocket, unlike many immigrants who come here without a job or money in their back pockets. Perhaps migrants who come here should pay Health Insurance?
S.O.
R.S.,
It's also BNP PR that has labelled the UAF 'new age communists' - in fact, you're pretty much para-phrasing their anti-UAF press. I've just been reading some - also says they use the same tactis as the Nazis did against the Jews. Which is what you wrote in a previous post. Very odd....
You'll enjoy this video. I did, it's hilarious! From the substandard quality of the English language, to the disturbed paranoia of their rants and the so-called 'independent reports' which are never substantiated as being independent at all. Aimed at the dumber BNP member then (that's pretty much the lot)....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNKH7gap4qA
R.S.
If I went abroad to work or for a holiday, I would be required to buy my own health insurance.
S.O.
What Planet are you on Guy? Come down to Planet Earth anytime you fancy. I don't think anybody has made any such claim on this thread? Who is in the 'Labour camp'? It certainly ain't me!
R.S.
What camp are you S.O.? It's not nice being accused of being in a certain camp is it? When you know yourself that you're not in said camp.
S.F.
"If I went abroad to work or for a holiday, I would be required to buy my own health insurance."
Not in the EU.
"so how are emigrants putting strain on similar countries?"
500,000 Brits in France use the better french health system
S.F.
"Most British emigrants usually go with money in their back pocket, unlike many immigrants who come here without a job or money in their back pockets"
Untrue, i've just showed above that loads of immigrants who come in the UK are highly skilled and create wealth!
Unbelievable that British immigrants are good but all others are bad?!!
R.S.
so you're telling me I don't need travel insurance when I go to Spain S.F.?
30 June at 14:40 · Like
R.S.
Also S.F., the US is not a similar country to France or the UK, the US doesn't have an NHS.
S.F.
I am Brit and I am still entitled to go in any other country when I want, as and howIi want because I am superior!!! but any other human being who is unlucky enough not to be a Brit actually cannot come to my country...
Inconsistant?! Who cares!!!!
R.S.
You are a fake, a troll and are spout the BNP dogma! End of!
R.S.
And Australia doesn't have an NHS either I believe.....
R.S.
Whatever......
S.F.
G.T.he guy has the right to give his opinion and actually quite a few working class people indeniably feel this way.
Now we can still try to deconstruct the cliches surrounding migrations and show that it is a complex subject!
R.S.
But let's put it this way....if I were BNP why would I be so afraid to admit it????? lol. This is Politics!
S.O.
R.S., was that an attempt to make yourself unreadable by inserting the word 'camp' too many times?
FFS, this is tedious. I'm totally opposed to partisan politics - I must point this out half a dozen times every fortnight. But, because I don't hold any particularly strong right-wing views and because I don't enjoy stereotyping and/or slating/blaming disparate groups of people (whom I mostly don't know) then somebody is actually dumb enough to categorise me as Labour? I hate Labour. I hate the Conservatives. I think people who still believe in blind partisan loyalty to either, or who think the two are opposite ends of the political spectrum, aren't paying enough attention.
S.F.
Travel insurance and health insurance are different.
> http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcareabroad/EHIC/Pages/Introduction.aspx <
S.O.
I don't know R.S. - because most people think they are pea-brained knuckle-dragging halfwits?
R.S.
WTF?
R.S.
You don't enjoy stereotyping? Lol. You already stereotyped me
30 June at 14:45 · Like
R.S.
"I hate Labour. I hate the Conservatives. I think people who still believe in blind partisan loyalty to either, or who think the two are opposite ends of the political spectrum, aren't paying enough attention."
For once I agree with you.
M.C.
G.T.no, I don't think anyone is saying he shouldn't have made those comments. Although I do think he's got the wrong end of a lot of sticks, it's good he made the comments, it's good we're having this debate.
Unnecessary bigotry and accusations of racism aside, issues relating to immigration do need sorting out, we're just putting too much responsibility on one group of often voiceless people, i.e. an easy scapegoat. Blaming immigrants is exactly what this and previous governments want us to do, it lets them get away with their negligence.
S.F.
The fact is R.S. that millions of British chose to go to countries where they can use their health system such as France , there has also been a scandal a few years ago about some Brits frauding the French benefit system.
Migrations go both ways, problems cut both ways!
M.C.
And we really do need to be careful not to lose sight of the great influence immigrants do and have had on our economy, language, culture, food, etc...
S.O.
R.S., I did nothing of the sort, and told you so once before already. Do you think if you repeat a lie enough if it'll stick? I merely pointed out, that if I was to make an assumption of your political leanings.....
And that would be down to you and the topics you've chosen and the words you've chosen to use.
Having since used the exact same terminology about the UAF that I've only ever seen before in BNP and EDL PR campaigns, you're not exactly going the right way of persuading me otherwise.
R.S.
That's just your paranoia though S.O..
R.S.
I am sure many people come out with similar quotes to others from different groups but it doesn't mean they're 'in their gang'.
R.S.
And S.F. that's not my fault that British folk choose to go live in France.
R.S.
I choose to live here....where is the hypocrisy?
S.O.
Paranoia? - you're only demonstrating you don't understand what it means. In what way is that paranoia? I'm making logical deductions, you should try to do likewise.
Sorry R.S., you are using EXACTLY the same terms as the BNP/EDL. Almost nobody else but groups of that type even give a flying one about the UAF. Most people don't even know what the UAF is. Seems very very odd that you have such an interest and that you should have ever mentioned it.
M.C.
I certainly hadn't heard of the UAF before and I like to think I'm pretty well informed.
R.S.
I know who the UAF ate S.O. because I know who the EDL are and I oppose both parties because they are extremists with extremist views, as are the MDL. So having said knowledge automatically makes me one of said groups does it? I think not.
R.S.
*are
R.S.
Therefore, seeing as you know who the UAF are - I take it you have had dealings with many BNP'ers ad UAF'ers before? Seeing as you know their terminology so well.
R.S.
And I don't think you give 'most people' enough credit for being aware of these people.
S.O.
I think I do R.S.. The UAF is not a party. Nor for that matter is the EDL.
Sorry, it seems odd that you should be paraphrasing BNP/EDL PR on the UAF. Say what you like, I don't care, because it does.
Would you like me to call you a racist or something R.S.? Seems to me that you actually want someone to call you one. Certainly started out like that, and have continued much the same....
R.S.
I would think that anyone who knows the slightest thing about politics would know who the UAF are and who they are supported by. I don't suppose then that many would know who 'hope not hate' are? Anyway, I digress from the topic of immigration. That is what we were discussing, wasn't it? Or are we now discussing the make-up of what a racist is?
R.S.
Why take my words 'parties' so literal S.O.? You knew what I meant, but if you wish to nit pick, next time i shall choose my words more wisely.
R.S.
You're the one calling me BNP S.O. therefore I think you have indirectly already insinuated that I am racist. Simply for having knowledge of what I think the UAF are. We all know what the BNP are anyway.
R.S.
Next you'll be accusing me of being Nik!! Lol
S.O.
If only you'd took that approach from the off R.S..
I think you're wrong re: the UAF, and regardless it would be an amazing coincidence for you to be using the same words about them as the BNP! Why choose to knock the UAF when you could have chosen the BNP, the EDL etc? Might have been a better policy than the old I'm-not-a-racist-but school.....
M.C.
I'm well aware of "Hope not hate", long may they continue their work against bigotry.
R.S.
They're all a bunch of extremist tossers S.O. and I will be honest - in my younger days I was extremely naive and I would have supported some BNP or EDL views. Good job I became a little wiser. Perhaps that is why you think I'm of BNP leaning? A modern conservative couldn't be more different. I support immigration, I love multi-culture, however I do not see what benefit the recent influx of immigration has brought us. So, that's where I stand on it now.
R.S.
My pre-emptive defensivness perhaps comes from the insults I have recieved, whenever I have had the displeasure of discussing immigration with ultra leftists who think immigration can do no harm whatsoever.
S.O.
As opposed to those who think it can do nothing but harm...
I don't think you're going to get anywhere with such a defensive posture oddly enough.
R.S.
Yes, exactly.
I don't wish to get anywhere, I just feel the need to pre-empt any negativity towards percieved bigotry - before the real accusations fly. (as they so often do, regrettably)
M.C.
R.S., what's different about the "recent influx" that makes them not worthy of support?
M.R.
Daltrey is wrong......he is ignorant and stupid.........immigration and emmigration are healthy, it allows people with different skills to find jobs if they are in a position to be mobile......any Government, given the issues regarding the ongoing funding of Public Services would be remiss not to recognise the opportunity presented by hundreds of thousands of young transient economic migrants who would be able to pay taxes and spend in the UK whilst not presenting a long-term drain on the Welfare State....and remember, where there is "abuse" by paying under the minimum wage, it is British Employers who are doing it......perhaps we should be blaming them?
S.O.
If only the chain-gang antics of many UK employment agencies were more widely publicised, it'd put a different complexion on the popular right-wing theory that immigrants come over here, are showered with scores of generous benefits and live the life of Riley...
B.H.
But what about the many migrants who are not in work and have no skills? Who pay no taxes yet enjoy benefits. Payment below the minimum wage may be carried out by employers in Britain, but why must they be British employers? What about foreign people-traffikers at work here?
R.S.
I'm not saying they're not worthy M.C., I'm saying the numbers are unjustified.
M.C.
B.H....people trafficking is illegal......anyone conducting such activities should simply be treated as criminals.....
R.S.
Doesn't immigration drive wages down lower? More competition for the employers?
B.H.
So what about the left-wing theory that every immigrant contributes immense benefit to the UK, hardly ever claims benefits and never commits a crime?
M.R.
By the sound of the article they must have given Daltrey a bottle of whisky to drink and then shoved a microphone under his nose.....its just a stupid rambling rant.......maybe tickets aren't going so well?
30 June at 16:05 · Like · 1
M.R.
B.H.......which left wing source are you paraphrasing?
M.R.
R.S......Wages can be driven down where there is a surplus of a particular skill.......or where one section of the labour M.C.et are willing to work for a lower wage whilst another section maintain they are worth more......but no employer should be paying less than the minmum wage...
G.T.
The jobs traditionally done by the working classes are generally low skilled, low payed work. The influx of immigrants has meant that these jobs are already filled, thus leaving many at the lower end of the spectrum with no vacancies. I think that was the point Daltry was trying to make.
B.H.
Yours for a start, M.C.. You paint a rosy enough view certainly. People -traffiking illegal? So what. Doesn't stop it happening does it?
S.O.
B.H., I don't subscribe to that theory - but what I'm not going to do is be a complete **** about it and tar all immigrants with the same brush. Immigrants are not an alien species, they're just people and should be treated as, and spoken of as such - rather than telling stories of immigrants committing murder, benefit fraud and so on. That completely colours the situation and the immigrants themselves in an entirely negative light. There's nothing clever about that, its horseshit.
Every one of us is descended from an immigrant - and I assume most of us now think of ourselves as British/English/Welsh/S.O.ish and possessing the God-given right to be here.
L.R.
Well, we all see what's happening in modern Britain, the sick are refused treatment due to budget restraints, people seem to harp on that immigration has been beneficial to the UK where its really damaged the country as a whole and an already over burdened understaffed NHS who face budget restraints once again have to deal with the influx of immigrants who are entitled to full health care even though they have contributed nothing to our country, this affects the funding for expensive treatments.
B.H.Fine
S.O. so why bang on about 'popular right wing theory' without the equally ludicrous left-wing version? The truth lies somewhere in between.
R.S.
Yes, balanced immigration. Good immigration not mass immigration.
M.C.
A truth certainly not given by hate mongers such as the Mail, Sun or Express.
G.T.
So should we just let everyone in then, with no controls what so ever? Also take a stroll through Nechells in Birmingham and tell me how comfortable you feel, migration in numbers we have had previously is a problem, i see it every day. It's all well and good folk from Surrey saying how great it is, try living with it.
S.O.
Because B.H., the "ludicrous left-wing version" is not unpleasant in tone and nature is it? FFS, you need things spelling out for you! I did state earlier that there's a sensible debate to be had about immigration but most of what I'm reading here - and I'm sorry, but it does happen to be the right-wingers - is just dehumanising shite.
I live in London incidentally Guy, I couldn't be better placed to experience living amongst immigrants.
M.R.
B.H......thank you for your compliment....lol....trouble is I wouldn't even call myself a "leftie".........I would only class myself as centre-left.......which just goes to show how far our country has lurched to the right....immigration from the EU is difficult to prevent, and its a two-way street,.....I do believe we need to be careful with immigration from other parts of the World.....to make sure we are attracting people who will create wealth or provide essential skills
M.R.
Guy.....why do you not feel comfortable in Nechells?
B.H.
S.O.: how 'pleasant' a theory is should not determine its merit. How the hell can any sensible discussion about what is widely regarded as a problem be held if one is going to cling to myths to avoid offending some sensitivities? Its the truth that needs to be obtained. What I am reading here is an healthy spectrum of views, not dominated by 'right wing 'shite' at all. You just seem hellbent on a racist witch -hunt rather than any balanced discussion. I sympathise with R.S., since I have experienced your sort before: anyone raising the subject of immigration is a nazi.
L.R.
Well said B.H., I haven't seen any element of 'de-humansiation' here at all. We are all human afterall.
L.R.
Not all truths make for 'pleasant' reading either.
L.R.
How does that saying go? "Shout racist - silence the opposition" (thus ending the discussion usually)
S.O.
What the chuff are you on about B.H., you lunatic? There's been no racist witch-hunt whatsover. It was R.S. who decided he was being called a racist - before anyone even mentioned the subject!
Again, what is going on in your head - did I suggest a theory need be 'pleasant'? No, I gave my reasons why I won't entertain that - and if they're not good enough for you, I'm not surprised as you seem incapable of actually understanding what you're reading.
You and 'balanced discussion' do not go together B.H..
S.O.
Yes Louise, how does the other saying go - accuse someone of calling you a racist, silence the opposition (thus ending the discussion usually). You're not exactly a genius.
G.T.
Because it's moody, you here very few folk speaking English, there is tension between the eastern europeans and the asian community, often spilling over into violence. Crime syndicates run it. Admittedly that was probably the case years ago but at least you knew why you were getting shot! Call me racist if you like I don't think I am, I just think uncontrolled migration leads to more problems than it solves, I'm sure someone will now tell me why I am wrong and what a horrible person I am, it's the opinion I've formed over the years as a result of the things I see, information taken on board, articles I've read etc.
L.R.
Well you did kind of insinuate R.S. was racist.
"Sorry, it seems odd that you should be paraphrasing BNP/EDL PR on the UAF. Say what you like, I don't care, because it does. "
That's like saying 'stop spouting BNP bullsh*t"
G.T.
Dunno why you think I was referring to you S.O. I couldn't give a monkeys where you live, as long as it isn't by me.
L.R.
Well you're just full of lovely compliments aren't you S.O.?!!! Lol, cheers.
L.R.
....and now will I be accused of being a 'troll'? lol
G.T.
He's a lovely man eh, what a sterling stand up human being he is. Tell me S.O. what do you say to 2nd generation Indian immigrants who think migration is a problem?
L.R.
He'd call them racist?
S.O.
Louise, thanks for that balanced appraisal of yours. R.S. did a good job of intimating he was of that persuasion from the off - that's his, not my problem. Nobody had mentioned racism/bigotry and immigration, but he did - twice. Oh and yes, he was was paraphrasing them. But sorry, never said he was bigoted, just pointed out that one could easily assume it and why. How awful of me.
Nice to see that someone - me - exercised you enough to contribute.
L.R.
I actually have seen immigrants (2nd gen) on the news saying that they're against immigration.....lol....how hypocritical is that?
G.T.
On every discussion going he just insults everyone who disagrees with him and offers up any arguments against his, I just react in kind now.
L.R.
http: //news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Politics/Immigration-Searchlight-Populus-Poll-Finds-Support-For-Far-Right-Parties-If-They-Ditched-Violence/Article/201102415941796
G.T.
Shouldn't waste your time reading/responding to him. I do it for a bit of fun for 20 minutes or so a day. It's very theraputic
L.R.
Yes I've had all sorts of attacks on similar pages in the past...mostly by far left wing types. Yet I have never insulted anybody to deserve it in the first place.
S.O.
Why will you be accused of being a troll Louise? Not at all - but glad all of the political issues of the day do not encourage you to post, but I do. I think that's actually a backhanded compliment.
Guy, why would I say anything to a 2nd generation Indian immigrant aboud his views? Why would I say that he's a racist Louise? Between you, can one of you manage to make sense? I would take issue if the language about immigrants was generally derogatory as I have here.
I know full well that there's plenty of immigrant descendants in this country who think immigration is an issue. I don't know where either of you get the idea that I'm oblivious that it is one either.
S.O.
Where do you live Louise - is it Australia?
L.R.
And excuse me S.O. but this whole thread is about immigration.
"Nobody had mentioned racism/bigotry and immigration, but he did - twice. Oh and yes, he was was paraphrasing them."
One should never make assumptions.
S.F.
Guy, I can't speak about how Britain was before the 'mass-immigration' years but I guess it's similar to France. And as far as I know there was not any less gang violence. Maybe things are different, they certainely are but I do not think they are any worse than before.
Since everyone is so found of stats, why hasn't anyone talked about the (british) stats about school children achievments? And how Asian kids outperform anyone? Surely it shows that some immigrants do well, assimilate themselves, play by the rules and are an asset to the country?
M.C.
I just see some ignorance and bigotry here but that's nothing new, saying there's racism is going too far.
L.R.
Nope, why do you ask? I live in Nottingham.
S.O.S
orry Louise, your latest post makes no sense. As I say, I'm pleased that something moved you to post and it's me.
Guy, that's a bit rich coming from you. You are bloody insulting to everyone who has a different view from you!
L.R.
As for " but glad all of the political issues of the day do not encourage you to post, but I do"....well...I have children (who are not at school today) to look after so I cannot comment on ALL threads on this group, unlike some. Maybe you have too much time on your hands?
S.O.
Just wondered with the koala bear L.R. Why are you so interested in me?
S.O.
Never seen you post ever before L.R. You've not dealt with any of the other topics I've raised. In fact, you seem quite absorbed with me...particularly me.
L.R.
Immigration is a topic that I am interested in discussing.
L.R.
S.F., why don't you post these links?
G.T.
You've had your 20 minutes basking in my radiance I'm now off, ta ta.
S.F.
Does anyone think that immigration can seriously be stopped or should not it be accepted as a fact we have to deal with rather than something we may want to avoid?
L.R.
Ever thought that these Asian kids may do better because of their strict religious upbringing?
L.R.
Or that perhaps their teachers feel the ned to spend more time helping these students just incase they're accused of being racist? Just saying.
L.R.
(need)
L.R.
Does anyone think that immigration can simply be controlled to more skilled immigration instead of thousands of hospitality workers and labourers?
S.F.
Do British workers want to be unskilled hospitality workers and labourers?
L.R.
Scott, I just love Koala bears..........would you be bothered if I were from Australia?
R.F.
Hey Roger Daltrey, why don't you go ffffffffade away.
L.R.
No, did I say that?
M.C.
"Ever thought that these Asian kids may do better because of their strict religious upbringing?" How on earth is that related to a discussion on immigration and it's affect on working class people?!
R.S.
M.C., I do believe S.F. brought that up.
L.R.
What working class people? you mean there are some left?
S.F.
M.C. I brought up the fact that stats show that Asian kids do better at school hence demonstrating that immigrants from the 1st or following generations are generally well integrated in society. I think it is important to give all aspects of a problem when discussing it.
Now, what do the working class specifically resent immigrants more? That's an interesting question indeed.
L.R.
My sister doesn't have a job and would have happily taken on any job offered, unfortunately that offer never came along because potential employers could monopolise the jobs M.C.et using cheap migrant labour......admittedly there are some British people who would rather sit on their arse all day than take the jobs that nobody else wanted.........but my sister isn't one of those people and I do believe there are more out there like her.
S.F.
Working class people (whatever that means nowadays) are certainely projecting lots of negative feelings onto immigrants using them as scapegoats.
S.F.
+why+
L.R.
So where is their voice? Who is speaking up for them? Labour certainly aren't because they have alienated voters such as my sis by not implementing proper controls on immigration.
L.R.
But it's true S.F., why are they scapegoats if it's true?
S.F.
"So where is their voice? Who is speaking up for them?"
Louise, I actually think we cannot deny there is a problem there that needs addressing. However, I do not think the solution simply lays into 'immigrants bashing'
And as an immigrant myself, I'd like to point out that I was shocked at how much the class system is prevalent in the UK and to be fair I do not think that the working classes ever had a golden age in here!!
M.C.
Sadly, the only people who have been making efforts to connect with the former working class are the likes of BNP and EDL. Dangerous stuff.
S.F.
What is true? That there is a negative feeling towards the immigrants within the working class?
Or that this feeling has got any legitimacy?
M.C.
The negative feeling is legitimate, the target is certainly not.
B.H.
Come off it M.C.. Are youy suggesting that the left are not trying to connect with the working class? Whoi the hell are they trying to connect with then?
Ch.S.
OMG ROFGER DALTREY HOPW CAN HE SAY THAT!?!?!? HE@S A FASCIST NAZI RACIST SCUM!!!""" I hear the likes of the UAF saying....But Daltrey is right, Labours Immigration policy has ruined the very class that this party was formed to represent and stick up for. However I don't put the break up of the working class society soley on Labours horrid immigration policy, but other factors as such as societey, the break up of the family unit, a lazyness prevailent among younger people, benefits being easier to claim and going uncheck and a sheer lack of discipline. It is all of the above mentioned combined with Labours absolutely dangerous policys on immigration that have caused this.
B.H.
Negativity towards immigration as a predominant feature of the 'working class' might be expected since (a) their jobs are under greater threat (b) they are generally thick and see things in a very simplistic fashion.
S.F.
B.H., to be fair, as someone who is considering herself left-wing, I think there is a real reflexion to have on what it means today to be on the left.
I think in France middle class people tend to be more on the left than the working class ones who are also turning to the extreme rightl. It does need addressing, but it is a complex problem. And immigration will not be stopped no matter how hard we try so we better find other ways to deal with this issue.
M.C.
Well we haven't had a left wing government for a long time, and the much of former working class people are less likely to vote, so none of the mainstream parties have succeeded at connecting with them.
B.H.
Well no doubt there are cultural differences in play re immigration S.F.. My comment was in the UK context. Not sure what 'other ways' there might be other than (ultimately) violent confrontation.
G.T.
I still think putting them on Battersea Island with various forms of weapons and filming the outcome would make great TV, it would lower the numbers of migrants, be entertaining and generate revenue from the gambbling. Who said immigration is negative. £200 on Ishta Muganbeovic please Fred.
M.C.
"I still think putting them on Battersea Island with various forms of weapons and filming the outcome would make great TV, it would lower the numbers of migrants, be entertaining and generate revenue from the gambbling. Who said immigration is negative. £200 on Ishta Muganbeovic please Fred."
And people wonder why the word Nazi comes up sometimes in these debates.
S.O.
What left-wing? There isn't one in the UK of any significance.
Oh and Louise, well yes, if you were Australian, then obviously you'd be an immigrant wouldn't you?
As for the working class, blimey.... They are as different in their make-up and outlook as immigrants surely? As it happens, both of them are largely demonised nowadays.
S.O.
To think I was being told off for being unpleasant by G.T.earlier....
S.F.
"Not sure what 'other ways' there might be other than (ultimately) violent confrontation."
Well are you refering to the Paris suburb riots a few years ago? It's happened once so as riots in Bristol happened not too long ago or in brixton a while go?
I do not see much difference between our 2 countries situtions, having lived in both countries. That was a sneaky unnecessary comment!
S.F.
Of course S.O. you're quite right categories such as 'immigrants' and 'working class' are not very pertinent and encompass multiple types of people. Though I think we need a minimum of generalisation to (try to) debate.
B.H.
S.F.: Sneaky? Unnecessary? I thought you were suggesting that anti-immigration views amongst the French middle calsses was more prevalent than in the UK. If tht is not so, ignore my comment about cultural differences
B.H.
S.O.: 'what left wing?' I know what you mean. The reds are now all masquerading as 'left of centre' ever since communism was shown to be a failed ideology.
B.H.
Not sure S.F. how we can tackle the problem of immigration if we can't use the term 'immigrant'...
S.O.
You clearly don't know what I mean B.H.. Who are 'the reds' (oh haha! They're Soviet types....oh well, I'll assume that all 'right of centre' are Nazis then, if we're going to be stupid about it!)?
There's no left wing parties in the UK of any significance. The Labour Party....oh please, don't make my sides split!
S.O.
Yes B.H., you just managed to use it. Let's please all practice the art of self-victimisation, just like the popular belief you can't fly an England/UK flag here anymore....
B.H.
Well there are no right wing parties in the UK of any significance either, S.O.. However there are plenty of individuals with extreme views, but few will admit to them.
S.F.
"S.F.: Sneaky? Unnecessary? I thought you were suggesting that anti-immigration views amongst the French middle calsses was more prevalent than in the UK. "
No, sorry, excuse my bad Englih, sometimes it's hard to get myself understood!
I said the French middle class were more on the left (so not anti-immigrants) and that the French working class were turning to the extreme right. Same phenomenum as here.
I meant that the left base is no longer working class but middle class.
S.F.
What would a right wing party of significance would look like?
S.O.
If they don't admit to them, not sure how you can announce they even exist! Follow the logic B.H.....
Mmmm the Conservatives are certainly still right-wing and I'd also argue that Labour and them are not far apart. Nor do I understand why people think they are - they've played consensus politics since the end of the Second World War.
30 June at 18:15 · Like · 1
L.R.
Immigration doesn't really seem to affect 'middle-classes' though does it? As many of them will indeed be employers of those immigrants thus they will be benefiting from paying a measly wage to immigrants.
Also, the middle class are more likely to live in the countryside where the working class have to live in the slums/inner city with the immigrants.
S.F.
I personnally live in greater london in a very cosmopolitan area.
L.R.
Perhaps somebody could give me an exact definition of what is 'left wing' and 'right wing' thesedays - as opinions seem to vary.
L.R.
Well I have lived in Birmingham and let me say it is not pretty, especially the no-go areas for whites.
B.H.
Conservatives right wing? Don't think many Conservatives would agree with you there Closing the prisons? Big Society? Save the Planet? Party convergence I do agree.
L.R.
David Cameron giving away millions in aid..............why couldn't he put that money in the public sector pension pot?
B.H.
Ha ha L.R. Not all the middle classes have immigrant servants working for them and you'd be surprised how many get out to the countryside. Farmers crying outy for crop pickers.
S.F.
"it is not pretty, especially the no-go areas for whites."
There are huge problems linked to a lack of social mixity and ghettoisation is the issue (not the immigrants per se)
I am a strong believer in social mixity as a means to solving loads of our society's ills.
M.C.
"Well I have lived in Birmingham and let me say it is not pretty, especially the no-go areas for whites." Total myth!
L.R.
Having said that didn't Labour also give billions away in aid?
M.C."
Conservatives right wing? Don't think many Conservatives would agree with you there Closing the prisons? Big Society? Save the Planet? Party convergence I do agree."
The first is to cut costs, the other two are to appeal to any lefty tendencies in the electorate but won't actually happen.
L.R.
But S.F., in the Tower Hamlets area there are talibanesque type Islamists going around putting up anti-gay posters and warning their muslim women that they must wear full Islamic dress........that is a big problem.
M.C.
Could you post a link about that please L.R. Would be interesting to know where you got that from.
M.C.
Anyway Louise, you're going all over the place with this. Keep on the topic of immigration please
S.F.
Extremism is a big problem and it goes both ways, yes anti West-feeling and fascism also exists amongst non white people! It certainely is as despicable as the other way around.
S.O.
Well now, I do agree with you on foreign aid L.R. Yet another own goal from this Government of idiots, following on from its "we're broke" rhetoric...then we loan an extra £7bn to Ireland. Not something a country that is "broke" could do (ask Greece). We've also expanded on our existing Middle East military jaunt. Not something a country that is "broke" can do.
I used to live in Leicester and there were some tensions there. But nothing approaching a boiling cauldron. I now live in Greater London, and I'd say its pretty harmonious.
L.R.
Which comment M.C.?
L.R.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340951/Where-did-Labours-1bn-foreign-aid-There-proper-records-says-scathing-report.html
Sorry this one is the daily Fail but perhaps given time I could find something from another more reputable paper that will back it up.....
B.H.
Hey M.C., no need to shout Louise down. We;'re talking about immigration and she made a point about immigarnt problems in Tower hamlets. Why is that irrelevant?
L.R.
http://www.democracyforum.co.uk/bnp/93675-britains-future-tower-hamlets-taliban.html
and....
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/andrewgilligan/100060304/labour-london-borough-becomes-islamic-republic/
30 June at 18:43 · Like
S.O.
Is anybody actually arguing that there are no problems with immigration? I don't believe anyone is for a minute. What is not fair is to group all immigrants together as some are very prone to do, because all that does is stereotype. What about Australian immigrants? Americans? South Africans? Portuguese? Indian? Etc. etc. Not all the bloody same are they!
L.R.
Thank you B.H..
M.C., I thought it was all related....immigration shouldn't just be about effects on the economy.
L.R.
And many people do tend to have a 'tribal' nature. I dare say that if ever tshtf here, and anarchy rules the streets, poor immigrants will be the first in line for a beating from the natives.
B.H.
Is anyone here trying to group all immigrants together? No, can't say I've noticed it.
L.R.
Yes, I agree S.O. but I don't think anybody specifically singled out any type of immigrant in this debate...or did I miss part of the thread?
L.R.
I am quite sure that many Aboriginees hate the Aussies, and will not class themselves as Aussies.....(notice how it is permitted to say 'Aussies' but if I were to say 'Pakkis' then I'd probably be called racist?). Yes the PC elite have caused too much damage in this country....
L.R.
Sorry, I digressed a little :-/
S.O.
You haven't noticed it? Blimey....
L.R.
p.s. notice how one of those links I provided was something to do with BNP...I'm not BNP but I thought I would add their spin on Tower Hamlets which is echoed on the Telegraph blog.
L.R.
I wonder if the Aboriginees ever thought that one day they would be the minority in their own land?
S.O.
The PC elite! Oh please, that's a cracker. No such thing - a media invention. What does it mean to be "politically correct" exactly?
L.R.
You know the kind S.O. the ones who make too much out of particular types of wording of things....example...those College Heads who wish to called Christmas 'Winter Break' for fear of offending the minority when the minority won't even gi...
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L.R.
Yes but it is more about their ethnicity than where they are from. If I were a Sikh and somebody called me a 'Paki' then I would be extremely offended....but how can you also tell what a British person or an Australian person looks like?
S.O.
But as it is so often associated with being used in a derogatory manner, then you've got the answer to your own question L.R. Do you feel a particular need to use the word?
Oh yes, those College Heads who do stuff like that - terrible. It's so rare that it makes the newspapers. Common everyday occurences don't.
S.O.
What Louise? Why are you asking me? I've never known anybody called an "Aussie" when they're infact not one. I'm sure it's happened but I'm equally sure it's rare. Not sure that I understand you've got a point here at all.
L.R.
No, I don't feel the need to use it, but even if I wanted to I would be accused of being racist. Even if it wasn't in a derogatory manner.
L.R.
But if I said 'I was just talking to a Yank'....nobody would think any differently.
S.O.
Oh right. But then, since you know that and you know why some people might just assume it as offensive, you know not to use it. I don't see the problem, it's not a hardship. I don't understand why you brought it up at all.
L.R.
Tbh S.O. I think i've slightly lost the plot or forgotten what point I was trying to make, lol. Bloody red wine with my supper....does it every time you know ;)
L.R.
(and 2 paracetamol for the headache after having the kids home all day lol)
M.C.
Let me enlighten you Louise, Islamic fundamentalism and immigration are two different things. Now please quit exploring the full range of xenophobic bigotry and get back on to immigration and how it apparently ""screwed" the British working class"?
S.O.
Because the term "Yank" has never been considered offensive. I've already explained why "Paki" has taken on those connotations.
L.R.
Sorry M.C., I digressed because of something S.F. said.
L.R.
Sky News right now....talking about pensions and foreign aid.....
30 June at 19:20 · Like
S.F.
What did I say??
L.R."There are huge problems linked to a lack of social mixity and ghettoisation is the issue (not the immigrants per se)
I am a strong believer in social mixity as a means to solving loads of our society's ills."
This ^ lol...which is why I responded.
M.C.
No I think Louise clearly has an agenda of insitement here.
30 June at 19:44 · Like
S.F.
I think Louise is R.S. and that they both are someone else!
30 June at 19:45 · Like
L.R.
Here we go......
L.R.
So what makes you think that then?
S.F.
Invite me as a friend so I can check you have a valid profile and I appologise!
M.C.
Most of what you've been saying L.R.
L.R.
The only thing I have to do with R.S. is that he is now a facebook friend. Lol. Through our shared beliefs of athiesm/agnosticism.
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