Thursday, 29 December 2011

PoliticsUK - Thread of the day 29-12-11

Still, let's not try to improve the NHS as the left have convinced us all that there's nothing to worry about.


Poor hygiene on the wards has resulted in those with hospital-acquired infections rising from 22,488 to 42,712 in just two years. Most of those affected are elderly.


W.M.
Oh dear (shakes head)
You know the source of the majority of infections in hospitals!?

The patients!

we carry so many bacteria on our bodies that the skin protects us from that once the skin is damaged and can’t protect us anymore and our immunity is compromised they run rife!

S.S.
Oh yes, bloody patients, if they weren't so bloody sick all the time.

W.M.
So unless you’re suggesting that everyone goes through a full body shower with disinfectant to get rid of as many bacteria as they can as they enter a hospital, this will continue to happen.



S.S.
Yeah, let's not try and improve cleaning standards or anything. That would just be ludicrous.

W.M.
Why do you think they take swabs of patients on entering hospitals for surgeries!?

They swab your nostrils and groin to check for the bacteria that cause problems!

W.M.
Cleaning a floor will do nothing if the patients have bacteria infected feet and keep traipsing all over them with the bacteria!?
It’s not rocket science S.S...

W.M.
Why do you think they have those bottles of alcohol cleanser all over the bloody place now!?

W.M.
Bacteria passes from person to person unless controlled

S.S.
Bloody inconsiderate sick patients. How dare they be so ill and expect to be made better by going into a hospital. The bastards.

W.M.
Well that’s essentially the source of your problem so that’s who your attacking the patients!

Nothing to do with cleanliness levels!

W.M.
But of course the truth and the Daily Mail have never been acquainted!

S.S.
So people are sicker and more contagious than they were two years ago?
Wait....
I know what's happened...
It's those bloody Tories, of course. Nothing to do with poor cleaning standards or the inadequacies of the NHS, it's those Tories.

W.M.
So what you’re claiming is that cleaning standards have dropped so badly in 2 years under the Tories!?

K.M.J.
This is a classical Dailey Mail spin on carefully chosen biased information. The rise in infection directly correlates to the fact that elderly and high risk patients are being given the opportunity to undergo surgery that at one time they would have been told was too risky. 20-30yrs ago people over seventy would not have been operated on, due to the fact that as you get older your immune system becomes weaker.

But let’s just have another day of putting down one of the best health services in the world, that the people in this country take for granted and constantly complain about.

W.M.
Couldn’t have said it better myself K.M.J..
All those on here who are alive thanks to the NHS who are so quick to disparage it should hang their heads in shame!






S.S.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1560849/UK-cancer-survival-rate-lowest-in-Europe.html

Because I pay tax for mediocre results. Envy of the world eh?

K.M.J.
Yes equipment shortages in the NHS is a major problem, and I do think this will improve dramatically with opening up to private patients and more provision of early detection services being run by private companies.

You also have to also look at the fact that survival of cancer after five years is down to early diagnosis and lifestyle, this will not improve until people start to take screening seriously and also be prepared to change the way they live. How many people bother to go and get themselves checked out every year, we have a cultural problem in the UK in getting people to go to the doctors unless they feel ill.

W.M.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10569097

W.M.
We invest less than the rest of Europe and America in our health service!

W.M.
and yes S.S. when you don’t have to pay at the door for the service, of course it’s going to be the envy of the world try asking an average American who have to pay for things like transport to hospital by ambulance!

W.M.
Oh and the last time the WHO rated health services we were ahead of
Switzerland
Belgium
Colombia
Sweden
Cyprus
Germany
Saudi Arabia
United Arab Emirates
Israel
Morocco
Canada
Finland
Australia
Chile
Denmark
Dominica
Costa Rica
United States of America

M.R.
W.M.....whilst I agree with your general point.....surely it is the responsibility of the NHS to deal with the "conditions" it faces....you really cannot blame the patients for being ill!

C.S.
Not sure that is W.M.s point really Mark. He is saying it's about dealing with ill people inside the budgets and trying to be as effective as possible I think

W.M.
Not blaming the people for being ill and certainly not blaming them for carrying bacteria like we all do, but I think there needs to be some honesty.
By far and away the vast majority of infections are carried into hospitals on the skin of patients, there’s no getting round that unless as I suggested you disinfected everyone as they entered both patients visitors and staff, but that doesn’t happen so of course you’re going to have infections.
Trying to blame that simply on a lack of cleanliness is unfair and doesn’t give the whole picture is what I'm pointing out to S.S..

W.M.
Of course it’s what grabs headlines and makes people fearful though the unfortunate thing is that tends to impact on the elderly who will be more reluctant to come forward for treatment involving stays in hospital, which is something these papers and headline writers never consider, they probably cost the lives of some!

M.H.G.
Maybe private rooms with private bathrooms are the answer rather than wards and shared bathroom facilities.

M.R.
W.M.....then shouldn't the old be entitled to feel "safe" in hospital? The NHS is a fine, and much needed organisation......but it could learn a lot about "customer care"........it can learn an awful lot about effective procurement and it can learn a lot about spending public money properly.....then, and only then, can it go back to government and ask for more.......the vast majority of people who are treated by the NHS are far better for the experience......but it is possible to kill the NHS with kindness.......as you well know, I am not a Daily Mail reader....(lol).....but I do have extensive experience of work in the NHS......and it is not a perfect organisation......

W.M.
I think anyone would be mad to try and claim its perfect, I'm certainly not doing that, but you have to remember that this is an organisation that provides a service every hour of everyday of every week of the year, to a million people a week up and down the country.

W.M.
And yes Mark anyone who’s vulnerable should be safe in hospital.

M.H.G.
Mark, you will never find "perfection" in a massive organization like the NHS.

K.M.J.
Mark .. I agree with you completely about the organisation and waste at the upper levels of management in the NHS. That is in my opinion something that stems from having politicians running it who are more interested in hiding the failings that do exist, instead of dealing with them and improving the service.

I hate the idea of privatising our healthcare in the UK and would fight it all the way, that does not mean I disagree with the idea of running it for maximum income and efficiency the way any national company would be run.

M.R.
M.H.G.......you are right.....one of the big issues...both strength, and a weakness, in the NHS is its size.........but I would far rather see a properly integrated universal service than one that is split into little pieces.....

M.R.
K.M.J......you have a fair point about politicians.....I can always remember Alan Milburn, when he was Minister of Health, being absolutely paranoid about criticism......but if national politicians, who are, at least to a degree, accountable do not set the broad standards and direction who would you suggest did?

W.M.
 K.M.J. when you say waste at upper levels of management what do you mean?
You do realise that management levels in the NHS are about 4% of the staff in comparison to the national average of 16% managers to staff ratio.
They are expected to function with 1/4 of the managers that all other businesses do!

K.M.J.
‎@ M.R... Targets and standards I think should come from our government, you will get no argument from me on that point. I had the misfortune of having to deal with our PCT heads, the PR department and legal department where constantly giving me the “you can’t do that its more than our jobs worth” they are the political side of the NHS that are constantly holding back progress on customer service and efficiency. Politicians exist on many levels of the civil service and they constantly work in the best interest of themselves and their political career, not the people or government that pay their very large salaries.






K.M.J.‎
@ W.M... I don’t think that the number of managers is the problem but that their expertise is an issue with managing resources and the way in which they deal with the contractors.
I was also thinking about their ignorance towards staff members at all levels who can offer a wealth of knowledge on what systems are working and what are not and yet are frequently ignored.

M.R.
K.M.J....too bloody true!......There is something fundamentally wrong with a system that is built on conformity and fear......yet, apart from Government "austerity" cuts they would have to have committed mass murder to get sacked!

W.M.
I do K.M.J. if you were asked to work with only a quarter of the staff necessary you don’t think it would have an impact on the service you provide?

M.R.
 If I was asked to do that....and it was unsafe to do it....I would blow the whistle....wouldn't you?

W.M.
Well that’s what the management of the NHS is expected to do, and who would they complain to?
their employers are the ones that allow such staffing levels because their roles are a political football, to be kicked about at a whim, to be a banner headline when people want to attack 'waste' in the NHS.

M.R.
W.M.....IF anyone is working in an unsafe environment they have a duty to report it......IF managers are asking staff to work in an unsafe way they should be reported.....there are mechanisms in place......use them!

A.K.
Andrew Ansleys NHS reforms bill will not be passed until March 2012 so there is still time to campaign against this bill which will undoubtedly lead to privatisation/a two/three tier system...This is an undemocratic bill which was not mentioned in either the Tory/Lib-Dem manifesto...The NHS belongs to the people and I wonder what part of NO Mr Cameron and co., do not understand as no one only the... gov. and the private sector business men who just happen to be Tory donors...want these changes to the MHS...

GPs don’t want it...Hospital doctors and nurses don’t want it...The BMA. RCGP, RCN are ALL opposing the bill and most of the British public are in opposition to the bill...Yet the government despite having a" listening committee "are not listening...

Anueurin Beven said that the NHS "will last as long as there as folk with faith to fight for it"

The cuts in the NHS are starting to be felt but in 2012/13 these cuts will come home to roost as they result in shortage of doctors and nurses....We are already facing a chronic shortage of GPs many of whom are leaving the service because they do not agree with the Bill and because it was not what they signed up for...and to protect their pension rights.

We have seen what privatisation has done to our dental services. In many cases it is difficult to get a local dentist. If this threatened shortage of GPs is allowed to go unchecked we will be facing problems of accessing a local GP...This Tory Bill is destroying and dismantling OUR health service to line their pockets many MP and members of the House of Lords are involved financially in private health care companies... and lining the pockets of their big businessmen party donors....

The NHS is already struggling to deliver the 20billion pounds of cuts demanded by the government. These cuts are designed to make the NHS inefficient and not working so that they will have an excuse to sell it off at a knock - down price...Privatisation will mean that profits will come before care...

This government has told us that privatisation leads to competition better services and lower costs....We just have to look at the utilities Margaret Thatcher sold off to know the the opposite is the reality..

W.M.
I think you confused what I said.
Management levels are staggeringly poor, 1/4 of what the rest of the countries companies’ average.

M.R.
W.M....depends what you call a manager........

A.K.
http://www.38degrees.org.uk/page/s/Protect_our_NHS_Petition.....

M.R.
Sadly, there is a lot of front-line staff in the NHS who run a mile from taking any responsibility........

K.M.J.
W.M. I was speaking more of top management and not the ones who are on the front line trying to do a good job with under-funded and under-staffed hospitals. Most of them never step foot inside the hospital they supposedly manage and never take responsibility for something wrong, they always find some lower down to take the blame.

S.B.
What a great deal of people are forgetting that the CLEANING of the wards, corridors, theatres as well as everything else is definitely not cleaned like the old days. In the old days when you walked into the hospitals you were hit with the smell of cleanliness of bleach with is missing these days. If those in charge of cleaning were to go back to using bleach to clean the wards and everywhere else then maybe the hospitals will eradicate most of the infections that one might pickup. Another words the hospitals now a days are dirtier than the old days.

J.W.
I agree they say bleach is bad to be used in public domains yet our very drinking water has it in to destroy bacteria.

J.W.
Antibiotics needs to be ditched as it compromises the immune system. Instead of antibiotics people should be eating or drinking soups that have antibiotic type foods in that keep control of bad bacteria. Garlic, onions, lemon juice, herbs any foods that can destroy bad gut bacteria and build the immune system.

S.S. ‎
"Mark, you will never find "perfection" in a massive organization like the NHS."

Precisely why it needs breaking up and transforming altogether.

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